logs archiveIRC Archive / Oftc / #tor / 2010 / January / 4 / 1
Goldstein
it does show visited to the side, but when I click to see that my info has been logged it hasnt been
keb
if the other end cant see it, that seems good enough
but social engineering or conditional css displays might fool people into doing things based on history
Goldstein
window size does bother me though
practically though, i think the only entity one would typically try to categorize people by that sort of basis would be googleanalytics or something
and so blocking that at the firewall or with privoxy would make me feel a lot better about that
keb
how could you block window size at the firewall
jr__
TCP window size? or web browser?
Goldstein
i'd block sites that I suspect would attempt to record it
my adversary model is different i guess
keb
jr_ web browser
jr__
that is a fair bit mork work
Sebastian
you cannot block that at the firewall or proxy level
         

jr__
you can filter it
Sebastian
doing anonymization in the proxy is idiotic
Goldstein
i generally only suspect google
jr__
not speaking to the merits
Sebastian
no, you cannot, unless you want to mitm all ssl
and that really isn't smart
Goldstein
u arent understanding me Sebastian
i'm not trying to filter it
im trying to block sites i suspect would actually record it
Sebastian
right
but that doesn't work
jr__
how does a server query window size?
Goldstein
does so. the oly sites i suspect are google and google analytics
Sebastian
jr_: it's available via js
Goldstein
jr_ js
jr__
so having a neutered javascript might have some merit
Sebastian
Goldstein: your traffic probably passing through google servers, even if you're not going there.
Goldstein
yes
how so?
jr_: and some costs
jr__
Goldstein: what do you mean?
s/and/at/?
Goldstein
possible broken functionality
no s//
jr__
uhm
yes s/and/at/
at some cost
not sure how the and applies
Goldstein
neutered js has some merit and some costs
jr__
ahh
okie dokie
Sebastian
Goldstein: Google has been buying lots of dark fiber
there are many people believing that it has peering agreements with large provides
providers*
         

Goldstein
you mean their servers route my packets?
Sebastian
yes
jr__
i.e. s/UUNET/Google/
Goldstein
ok
Sebastian
I cannot proof this
I don't even know if it is true
Goldstein
(Action) puts tin foit hat on
misc
( s/servers/routers/ in fact )
jr__
it probably isn't now
Sebastian
but if you cannot disproof it, you have to assume it is happening.
jr__
almost certainly will be in the future
:D
Sebastian
(if you want to be protected from it, that is)
Goldstein
as if i needed to be more paranoid then i already am
jr__
oh, you haven't even begun to know paranoia ;)
Goldstein
how can i trust my hardware?
keb
http://www.telco2.net/blog/2009/10/perhaps_the_most_important_cha_1.html
Jamon
Penis pills sell because men mistakenly fear having a small penis. Tor sells because men mistakenly fear governmental power. Same basic principle. Paranoia of government is largely primitive instinct. There's some truth to it, just as there is with having a small penis. But mostly irrational.
jr__
Jamon: lol
Sebastian
Jamon: you appeared to be a mostly sane person, I don't see why this is necessary.
jr__
Jamon: you're safe on the 99.99% chance that no one in the government cares about you
nothing else keeps you safe
misc
jr__: being the government maybe : :p
jaj
hi, I was wondering, when you want to run a bridge, not an actual relay, do you still have to pass all outgoing ports?
or does the bridge communication go over predefined ports?
because I'm setting up a bridge and it's not happy with ReachableORAddresses
Jamon
Government cares about no one. It is a system, the same as water flowing down a mountain, pooling into a lake, flowing over a cliff. Irrational paranoia stems from a misunderstanding of the forces, but acknowledgement of their power.
keb
jaj see FirewallPorts in the tor manualk
jr__
Jamon: you're ignorance of everything is appalling - if you become annoying to someone in power, it is trivial to charge with a crime, set a high bail, and then force you to plea out or incarcerate you indefinitely
Jamon
Your.
jr__
my irritation got the better of me
Jamon
I only correct people when their mistake was an insult.
jr__
you are correct in that very limited regard
jaj
keb: that's the same setting except it's obsolete
Goldstein
someone answer jaj
keb
oh yeah
jr__
any how
this belongs on #nottor if that
Jamon
#nottor practices censorship.
Goldstein
real q's from people wanting to relay are high priority
jr__
maybe #tor should too
keb
i'm pretty sure outgoing ports are random
Jamon
Maybe supporting Tor while silencing other supporters is hypocritical.
jr__
we can create a #tor-chat if you would like someone to listen to your commentary
I'm now on #tor-chat
you can continue this there
Goldstein
wait #nottor doesnt let you talk conspiracy theory?
Jamon
No, it doesn't let you try and help Tor increase its usage.
Sebastian
jaj: yes, you still have to pass all outgoing ports
jaj
Sebastian: ok thanks
Sebastian
jaj: since there is no way to tell clients that your bridge cannot be used to reach some relays
also, if you controlled a few, making it so that your bridge can access only them wouldn't be good for clients.
Jamon: #nottor does not practice censorship. You happened to annoy someone with the power to wield the banstick
Goldstein
keb: join me on nottor plz
Jamon
If it were my channel that would be impossible.
The reason why we need Tor begins with individual minds. Tor is a temporary hack, the ultimate goal should be patching minds. That includes moderators incapable of separating their personal ego from the technical requirements of moderation control.
Sebastian
good luck.
jaj
is there an easy way to see if my bridge is running as expected?
Jamon
Watch your bandwidth usage?
Goldstein
the same place you go to see if your relay is running ok?
Jamon
It uses a lot.
keb
Goldstein bridges dont show up in the torstatus pages
jaj
Jamon: according to the documentation it uses hardly any bandwidth
Goldstein
sorry. i did use a ? though
keb
well the bridge should use as much bandwidth as its users, perhaps you mean not much overhead
Jamon
jaj: Mine was pumping out hundreds of gigabits
grey-
jiggabitz.
Jamon
foshizzabits
Sebastian
jaj: neither Jamon nor Goldstein are correct
jaj: unfortunately, there is no simple way to check
Goldstein
I used a ? ok!!!
Sebastian
one thing to see if it is at least configured correctly is try to use it from somewhere else
jaj
Sebastian: ok no problem, I can just setup a client that uses my bridge
Sebastian
but that doesn't tell you if it is censored in any of the common places
Jamon
Ya, I wasn't right. I've never made a Tor bridge.
Sebastian
jaj: bandwidth usage might remain low for quite a while if you're one of the bridges we're holding on to without publishing them because we want to have some around when all the others are blocked
Jamon
Is it a practical expectation for Tor to significantly increase speed any time soon?
keb
depends on development pace. the current alpha is faster than the stable version
and what you mean by significant
and soon
Jamon
Like maybe 100-1,000x, in the next year
Sebastian
no
Jamon
1. Post to website, get censored. 2. Open Tor, goto website. 3. Wait.. 4. Wait... 5. Wait.... 6. Post anonymous yay no more censorshi... what? (Your IP is banned for abuse) 7. New Tor circuit 8. Goto 2
keb
https://www.torproject.org/faq#WhySlow
Meliboeus
Any idea why tor complains about system clock jump that never happened?
I get the following error message: Your system clock just jumped 9402 seconds forward; assuming established circuits no longer work.
Goldstein
It's mainly slow due to the fact that you're downloading at others' upload speed yes?
Jamon
It's slower than dialup modem. Much. It's mostly the connection waits.
keb
Problem #1 is that Tors congestion control does not work well. We need to come up with ways to let quiet streams like web browsing co-exist better with loud streams like bulk transfer.
according to Roger's paper
https://svn.torproject.org/svn/tor/trunk/doc/roadmaps/2009-03-11-performance.pdf
Goldstein
i think the most important stream is irc/im
and sh
ssh
Jamon
It is shared resources, open for abuse, used mostly for things that do not require strong anonymity, like irrational paranoia, and file leeching. Meanwhile, the important actual uses, which are text-based and low-bandwidth, are nearly impossible. Tor network needs some oppression on its users.
Goldstein
i hope the ops here start with you
Jamon
Yes, one of the only people who actually has used Tor for real purpose, and has contributes greatly towards it. Start with me. Censor me.
We need a tool for the silenced. Tor is a lie. Mental ma******tion for paranoid delusionals, and penis ma******tion for perverts. When it is broken for people actually trying to use it for intended purpose, instead of fixing it, ban them. Shut them up. It works for spammers and child pornographers, that's all that matters.
Goldstein
in call bs
time for ignore
i'm not the 1st either
Jamon
Ignore, the act of the ignorant.
Meliboeus
Jamon: remember that these "paranoid" users are very important for tor as they add a lot of traffic to the network
Jamon: and this traffic makes it hard to identify the "important" users
Jamon: If you only had the "real" users, it would be easy to do traffic analysis
Jamon
Meliboeus: Yes that is very important. But the health of the network must be taken into consideration. If the unnecessary and abusive uses are interfering with potential important use, what is the point?
Goldstein
Meliboeus++
Meliboeus
Jamon: I agree in theory with you. In practice that is a very hard thing to do when you do not want to compromise anonymity.
Actually, I prefer to have some crap traffic on the net.
Jamon: and to be honest, there is enough bandwidth to send over some text stuff, right?
Jamon
Why can't there be some default requirement of contribution, and filters for large binary transfers? People can change the settings if they're advanced, but wouldn't that at least help push the health towards the positive?
No there really isn't. The IP addresses are banned, the using of modern websites is unbearable.
It'd work for usenet.
But no one uses usenet.
Meliboeus
hmm, maybe there should be something like "outgoing bridges"
keb
Meliboeus how far is your system clock off?
Meliboeus
keb: 0s
Goldstein
i have little problem using this irc server with tor
Jamon
Is it possible a relay had an off clock?
Meliboeus
keb: got that error message twice this day: once with 13237 once with 9402s.
Jamon: I don't think so as the error indicated that my system was off the clock
Jamon
But how does it know, it compares it to Tor director server's clock?
Meliboeus
Jamon: I guess so. But I don't know with which server.
Jamon: Isn't there some consesus on the time in the network?
Jamon
No clue, I've had clock errors before though. I just figured it was my fault and ran NTP
Meliboeus
Jamon: Well, I'll wait a few days to see what will happen.
Goldstein
thank you
Sebastian
hrm
Jamon did have quite a few valid points
it is sad that he had to hide them amongst some crap
dr|z3d
What has he greatly contributed?
Sebastian
like for example, Tor would be a better system this instant if 100% of the leechers dropped using it
keb
dr|z3d
Sounds like the same troll of yore.
<Jamon> Yes, one of the only people who actually has used Tor for real purpose, and has contributes greatly towards it. Start with me. Censor me.
Typical hyperbole. "One of the only people" *laughs*
Goldstein
Sebastian: so u r the one who argued that
the other day, it was agreed that leechers were good for tor
Meliboeus
keb: thank you for this link. I use FreeBSD, so I don't think that this patch applies.
Goldstein
by those present
Sebastian
Goldstein: the one who actually argued this the way I'm arguing it right now was arm
a
I didn't particularly like to get into a flamewar when you last discussed the topic
and I do not wish to do so now.
Goldstein
k
could you publicize the argument on torproject.org if you come to consensus?
Sebastian
I don't know a member of the tor project disagreeing with me
Meliboeus
I am lost, what argument are you talking about?
Goldstein
whether leechers contribute to anonymity
Meliboeus
Ah. I see.
Sebastian
that's not the only argument
keb
Meliboeus what version are you using
Sebastian
it is also about the current level of service available to "normal" users due to leechers.
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