logs archiveIRC Archive / Oftc / #tor / 2010 / January / 3 / 1
SwissTorExit
arma: hello, i see that you have updated the git master/branch about the "stats" folder right
it create now but still a warn while it don't create the "bridge-stats" file
arma
swisstorexit: i fixed that one earlier today
oh
there's a new problem you're explaining
SwissTorExit
yes and i try yet, it create the stats folder but not the text file :P
it give me the same warn as early, the only difference are that now it create "stats" but empty whith warn in log
would you that i open a bug task for that or it is ok ?
arma
nope, i've got it almost fixed on my side
SwissTorExit
that's what i have figured , that's why i told you here :P, thanks
Goldstein
anyone wanna try to convince me that leechers do nothing to help with anonymity?
grey-
leechers?
Goldstein
people who dont relay
grey-
umm
         

misc
well, i think this help
grey-
why wouldn't they help with anonymity?
alternatively, why are you looking to be convinced that they don't?
seems to me, that you could have the most amazing relay network in the world.
Goldstein
well certain people have claimed that they dont
grey-
but if only one person used it; that wouldn't really help you out.
I mean, it would to an extent.
but other people's traffic makes for good cover, don't you think?
Goldstein
but their arguments havent convinced me yet
grey-
huh
it's easier to find a needle in a haystack
than a needle in a stack of needles.
I don't mind leechers.
more needles that aren't mine. ;)
Goldstein
that's what i would think
grey-
I dunno who these people are who need convincing.
but similar ideas are presented in many cases.
vinnie's metasploit antiforensics talk from 2005 or so made good use of this idea as well.
(albeit dealing with filesystem level stuff mostly, or how to hide your rootkit)
one great example was...
leave something obvious for a forensic investigator to find.
jr_
the larger the crowd
the harder to find the individual
grey-
the analogy being
if you're looking through your room to find keys you've lost, you don't keep looking once you've found a pair.
Goldstein
yep
jr_
uhm
grey-
"oh it's this known rootkit, I can call it a day!"
albeit.
waltman
"Oh wait, those are my CAR keys!"
grey-
in thorough investigations...
jr_
ahh, vinnie's talk
grey-
they will try to get as much evidence as possible; if we're to believe CSI and whatnot.
jr_
I think TOR is more like covering your floor with car keeys
grey-
hehe
yeah, something like that.
Goldstein: I mean...
jr_
its not very anonymous if yours are the only keys on the floor
         

grey-
being an exit node definitely carriers a greater risk than being a "leech"
jr_
but if everyone stores their keys on the floor
grey-
but more risk of C&D letters and whatnot.
Goldstein
i dont see the guy who was complaining about leechers here atm
grey-
in some ways if you were doing nefarious things.
jr_
it would be nice to have more relays
grey-
running an exit node might give you some culpable deniability.
jr_
but everyone using it adds to the noise
plausible
grey-
errr right
jr_
not culpable
:D
grey-
haha
paranoia slip?
jr_
hrrrrrrrm
Goldstein
i guess the bigger Q is, is tor gonna kill leechers soon?
s/soon//
xtoaster
what makes you think so ? :-)
Goldstein
it's always a concern
L0rD`
you gonna be torrified , resistance is fertile *jokingly*
danieldg
giving priority to non-leechers is the only thing like that that I have heard, but it doesn't yet have a good method for preventing cheating
L0rD`
as I said in #nottor I have no prob with it , just my point of view
grey-
how would tor kill leechers?
xtoaster
i dont think it feasible. there will be problems with the topology.
eg for people in side china they cant be reached from the outside
grey-
if I'm in a situation (e.g. china) where I need to circumvent censorship, I may have no other way to access things but via tor and running an exit node might be impossible. Aren't those the kinds of users we want to help the most?
I don't see it as leeching.
xtoaster
yep cuba, iran, will they arrest you because you use tor ? i dont know
Goldstein
grey-: they could just require that you relay or else
grey-
that seems to up the threat that users would face.
xtoaster
at least they will think you are suspicious
grey-
when I hear leechers.
I think of warez.
and while warez are neat and all...
keeping ratios is more important in peering situations
(even internet exchange peering arrangements)
Goldstein
well I've defined leecher here reasonably
grey-
I know; but I just think of *users*
I don't think the directory service can currently scale to match the same # of exit nodes as you have active users of tor.
I think arma was positing maybe it could scale to 5-10 thousand exit nodes listed in a directory service.
maybe that's been improved, or should be.
but I would hazard to guess many more people use tor than that.
in the same way routers already are challenged to keep route tables for all the other routers they talk to.
if instead you expected every router to have a direct route for everyone who used the internet?
it doesn't scale... ;-/
or well, it does but everyone using isn't everyone routing.
Goldstein
and before anyone goes hatin' on leechers, bear in mind that some people, myself included both leech and relay
i.e. leech on certain machines, and relay on others
grey-
some of the mesh routing protocols try to address this.
Goldstein
because relaying makes more sense on a t1 line IMO than adsl
grey-
but doing mesh routing protocols *and* maintaining anonymity seems challenging; maybe it's a worthwhile challenge though.
Goldstein: *nod* yeah there are many usage patterns.
relaying is handy too...
but forcing all users to also relay/be an exit node seems untenable.
Goldstein
bascially, i relay when it makes sense for me to
good
grey-
maybe it's doable though; I dunno.
I haven't seen it work with non anonymity networks of scale.
but it might just be a hard problem period.
still maybe worth solving.
not sure if tor would be the first step to solving it though.
Goldstein
i think they'd be better served to try to reduce torrenting on tor
grey-
I think steps towards that were taken some years ago with changes to the default exit policy.
Goldstein
i dunno how many people do that, but that's not what it's supposed to be for
grey-
also within the torrenting community there has been more awareness raised about only using bittorrent over tor for talking to trackers.
Goldstein
that's lame
grey-
but I haven't paid close attention.
seems like increasingly warez trackers have gone private/invite only as a means of evasion.
rather than advocate usage of tor.
Goldstein
that being port games
grey-
well; if you have an invite only tracker...
Goldstein
they should use i2p
grey-
i2p may still use tor for 'outproxying'
iirc.
but yeah.
there's many ways to build a darknet.
not all of these are useful for tor.
Goldstein
what im sayingis torrenting should be within the i2p net
grey-
moreover; one of the great things about tor is it's a socks proxy.
Goldstein
no outproxying needed
grey-
oh, is it not?
(Action) hasn't touched i2p in a while.
I thought it was though.
Goldstein
it does
grey-
anyway, dictating usage for an anonymous network is challenging. ;)
Goldstein
true
grey-
I mean, the default exit policy also prohibits port 25 to reduce abuse by spammers.
but I'm sure there are some exit node operators who permit port 25
Goldstein
i2p requires outproxying if you're silly enough to require it
grey-
and I'm sure there are some legitimate tor users who want to send email, not spam.
Goldstein
i did explicitly
grey-
hmm
Goldstein
sometimes I allow 25 when relaying
xtoaster
they can use web mail
grey-
yeah I think the idea of building a distributed anonymous relaying network where everyone is also an exit/relay is an interesting on though.
that said I don't know if it's doable.
even doing it without the anonymity portion is a big challenge.
mesh routing protocols seem to be the modality to get there.
but even things like olsrd I think might only scale to 5-10 thousand nodes currently.
Goldstein
people can just require AUTH from my node for smtp
xtoaster
i2p is tweaking its flood fill to support bigger scale :)
grey-
does i2p require everyone to be an exit as well?
xtoaster
no no exit
Goldstein
kinda
yeah
grey-
like I said, I haven't looked at in in a while.
xtoaster
they are just relays
grey-
well not exit; but be an active routing participant?
Goldstein
yes
you have to route for i2p
grey-
hmm do they have stats on how much they've scaled that?
Goldstein
bu thing is, you dont have to outproxy
grey-
*nod*
I understand.
xtoaster
currently they have but after the change it will not work :)
grey-
I mean, I guess one approach (maybe they did this)
Goldstein
so it's really different
grey-
is if you are expected to route...
that routing table could change the peers you route to
so that maybe the table itself is a fixed size.
but at any one time the whole network can still route to everyone.
just maybe not you.
Goldstein
in fact i think if you are doing something with i2p that requires outproxy, you are probably doing somethig stupid
grey-
you might need to try a few peers to get to one where the packet has a route to go to.
Goldstein
but with torrenting, if everyone just used the i2p network
grey-
not talking about outproxying.
just thinking about scaling for a second.
xtoaster
current there are only 6-7 flood fill routers but in the future will be more and no one could be sure how many peers are thre in side i2p
grey-
does i2p require that you know everyone in the i2p network?
Goldstein
you wouldnt need outproyxying
grey-
that is not scalable.
unless it's a small network.
xtoaster
its designed a full mesh
grey-
so there's 6-7 flood routers?
xtoaster
but i does alway work the way
grey-
a flood router then has knowledge of all the peers?
Goldstein
and the thing is, torrenting is so specific that it really should not be that hard to require i2p use
xtoaster
currently it is
grey-
similar to the directory service having knowledge of all exit nodes?
ok.
xtoaster
nop not exactly
grey-
not exactly; but in jist?
I mean...
xtoaster
the flood fills are choosen randomly
grey-
the paradigm is something like...
xtoaster
by algratm
grey-
but across all flood routers they have complete knowledge of the network.
all 6-7
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