logs archiveIRC Archive / Oftc / #tor / 2009 / November / 21 / 1
Premium
if tor used seedless torrets the it would't need any donations right?
phobos
donations help fund research and development
Premium
heh
misc
what do you mean by seedless torrents ?
Premium
pirabate and soon the entire p2p community is gonna use magnet links
tracker servers are outdated and really arent needed
piratebay shutdown all there trackers
anyway what does tor team really need to research?
phobos
you seem to be confusing tor with torrents
misc
unfortunatly, google also does the same error :(
phobos
google's just regex matching
it also confuses tor with toronto or half of scandanavia
or tor books
Premium
i'm not cofused
you did't read what I wrote
or what he wrote
         

phobos
https://www.torproject.org/press/presskit/2008-12-19-roadmap-full.pdf that's part of the r&d
nickm
This is a special-case of the Kruger-Dunning effect: it is easy to think that there is nothing more to learn in a field not your own.
Premium
my original query was if tor used seedless torrents to host its software it'd be p2p and wouldn't need to pay for hosting, therefor wouldn't really need any donations
and he asked what a seedless torrent is
phobos
we don't pay for hosting
nickm
Well, that's a statement not a query.
phobos
it's donated
nickm
And the answer is "no"
phobos
Premium
no it's a query because I was asking, not assuming
phobos
and then, freehaven.net/anonbib is the current state of research
however, seedless torrents might be a fine way to distribute tor
https://blog.torproject.org/blog/bittorrent-support-thandy and we started on that path this summer
Premium
well i'll say this, if the donation pay is accurate, and you guys don't pay for hosting, you my friends are making an extraordinary amount of money, nice work
phobos
what donation pay?
Premium
yeah over a mil
phobos
where are you getting these numbers?
Premium
from the donation pay on tors website
it's actually over 1.5 million
phobos
link
Premium
ugh
hold on
http://www.torproject.org/donate.html.en
phobos
(Action) is apparently blind
nickm
phobos: Giving you the real link would be too hard. I think the guy is misreading http://www.torproject.org/sponsors.html.en
Premium
you already knew what the link was nickm why make me even search for it again?
         

nickm
Because I thought maybe you had something different that would actually say what you said it did.
Why not give phobos the real one? Are you trying to waste his time?
Premium
i couldn't find it, it's not my site it's yours
and anyway the information I spoke of is correct in terms of numbers
nickm
you do addition funny
or "up to $X" means something weird in your language
Premium
you and I both know you don't need over a million to research making a proxy better, so again gj you're making a incredible amount of money
phobos
it's not a proxy
well, it's online anonymity
not just a proxy like some simple single-hop thin
g
misc
Premium: well, there is conference intendance to pay, and you know how many people are paid to work on this ?
nickm
also, don't forget to divide by years as well as number of developers.
misc
and the taxes, i guess
nickm
and health insurance costs. This is the US
misc
and the adminitratve people paid to manage this
phobos
we're a non-profit, so taxes are minimal
there are roughly 14 people paid to work on tor
and we fund 2 grants
Premium
only developers that get payed are the core 5 or obviously,rest are just contributors
really?
phobos
there's 14 core
nickm
"obviously" ?
How so?
I think "obviously" means "sh*t I made up one day" to you.
Premium
i've only seen about 5 or so of you main guys
misc
and so ?
Triskelios
"seen"?
Premium
arma being one, the rest of the 10 must not come online nor submit updates to your guys code base
nickm
Ah. So "obviously" means "observed by me."
misc
Premium: not everybody is here , obviously
nickm
Interesting.
Premium
you look at the last year plus, all patches etc submitted, you'll see same 5 ish names
nickm
Frankly, I think you're trolling.
Premium
that is interesting
yet my claims have all paned out? funny how thats trolling
phobos
look at debian, how many commit vs how many are contributing in non-commit ways
nickm
suuuuure.
misc
Premium: well, people doing qa and testing are not submitting patchs maybe ?
nickm
I'm done letting you waste my time. Peace out.
misc
i would also think that people who write the documentation ,etc are not counted as coder, yet they are paid
Premium
tor's a open source project, every contributor i've seen listed helps tors out of there own desire, they don't get payed
phobos
so the point of this is....
Premium
the point was simply me congradulating the tor team on making a lot of money from donations
phobos
thanks
nsa
or: phobos committed revision 20997 (/torbrowser): tag and release tbb 1.2.10
or: phobos committed revision 20998 (/torbrowser/trunk/build-scripts): bump trunk to 1.2.10-dev
or: phobos committed revision 20999 (/torbrowser/trunk): create the next changelog
or: phobos committed revision 21000 (/website/trunk/include): new -alpha and tbb coming
or: phobos committed revision 21001 (/website/trunk/en): add melissa
coderman
http://oswatershed.org/pkg/tor
http://www.ohloh.net/p?query=tor is the link i was looking for. i have tought you how to fish! (use the code metrics link to see what developers are significant commiters to the many Tor apps/code bases. note that many are also missing so you'll have to ask for them to be added or use sloccount / $tool yourself on the svn and git repos.
taught rather. but i suspect Premium is gone by now ;)
dr|z3d
One can but hope, coderman ;)
phobos
i sometimes would like to see silly svn/git stats over time
the ohloh stuff is neat however
i find this disturbing, http://www.ohloh.net/p/tor/contributors
mainly the commit count has dropped this year
coderman
i bet it is tracking svn only
(it has more than a few flaws, but is useful for trending and percentiles, maybe.)
sybil commiter ids is another
committer
(Action) starts spamming <a href="https://www.ohloh.net/sessions/new">https://www.ohloh.net/sessions/new</a> for great justice
phobos
i wonder when the last time we sync'd git to svn
http://www.ohloh.net/p/tor/enlistments it says git
but failed
coderman
weird
phobos
http://www.ohloh.net/p/8457/contributors
ha, 8 commits for me
coderman
i am trying https git
Sebastian
if it only listed svn, it would see just one commit every few weeks from nickm
with git, if one pull ever succeeds, they know everything
But you can clearly see how pre-git stats are worthless
it says that I have been contributing since jan 2009, which is of course bullsh*t.
also, it looks like the tool is overcounting some stuff by having more than the one canonical link to our repository
horiz6
/mode +b
Piet
while i agree 'premium' was a troll, he did raise my atteention by saying that you have 'a lot of donations' and by phobos stating that you have 14 paid developers. that's, all by itself, interesting facts (which may be documented elsewhere) which I have not been aware of.
It's by no means as much as Wikipedia and I do think Tor is very much necceassary and I'm happy it exists. And that, with the all the complexity it bears, people are sill interested in continuing its development.
keb
that could mean a few big money sponsors or a lot of small money sponsors or both
it does not imply anything by its elf
Piet
I did not mean to imply one nor the other
Sebastian
Piet: are you sure about your facts? How much money does wikipedia raise annually?
nsa
or: phobos committed revision 21002 (/projects/todo): update the tasklist from today's conversations and progress
Piet
Sebastian: "In 2009-10, the Wikimedia Foundation will increase revenues by 43% compared with 2008-09, for a total of $10.6 million." source: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/a/a3/2009-10_Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan_FINAL_July2.pdf
this appears to be a projection, not a status report.
Sebastian
Piet: oh, I'm totally sorry. I misread what you wrote. Never mind
Piet
np ;-)
Sebastian
wikipedia does gets lots more money than Tor. I just wanted to make that clear
Piet
that's what i tried to say
nickm
Also, the figures on the sponsors page are the high end of ranges, and they are not annual figures.
Sebastian
yes, and I misread. Sorry again
phobos
and they cover many years per sponsor
nickm
IOW, "Up to $100k" means "$100k OR LESS," not "approximately $100k"
and not "$100k per year" or even "$100k this year".
keb
so its more like 14 developers over the life of the project
phobos
look at the people page
i do find it odd that some non-profits advertise their financial success like a for-profit company
keb
well many people cannot get out of the mindset that money = success
Piet
(Action) wholeheartedly agress to this sentiment
keb: 14 developers over the life of the project sounds very different to '14 developers currently working on it full-time' (which I currently had in mind), so thanks for explaining this.
phobos
we've turned down money, or rather redirected it, which seemed to completely boggle the funder's mind that more money == more tor, faster
we currently have 14 people working on tor
Piet
ah, full-time then?
phobos
i wouldn't call them all developers, in the classic sense of the word
keb
and lots of contribuTors
phobos
no, most are part-time
Piet
and they get paid by donatoins?
Sebastian
I wonder if I am included in the 14 or not
:)
phobos
and contracts
keb
do you get free coffee
Sebastian
no
I hate coffee :)
Piet
uh oh... sorry for raising that discussion
keb
microsoft gives free pepsi and pizza
Piet
gah
Sebastian
Piet: hey, no worries.
phobos
we aren't microsoft, nor google
nor some web 2.0 .com
keb
glad to hear that ;)
Sebastian
Piet: Many people work on Tor, certainly more than 14. Some do it every day, and some even do it fulltime
Piet
phobos: glaaaady you're not
Sebastian
Many more make Tor work at all by running a relay
All of these people contribute a lot, otherwise, there would be no Tor
Piet
Sebastian: of course, there's surely mor ethan 14 contibutors (in terms of code/patches), but I was wondering whether those 14 people phobos mentioed get paid.
I'm not opposed to it, just wondering whether that'S the case.
keb
open source doesnt have to mean unpaid
phobos
ha, we're too small for charity navigator
Piet
I don't think I said it had to be. :)
charity navigator, what's that?
phobos
Piet
ah a search engine helped
keb
my question is, what resources are needed to meet the project's goals and stay independent of corrupting influences
phobos
transparency is our biggest anti-corruption
Sebastian
keb: as I understand it, we have many things we want to do. External funders can pick which of these things we do first by paying Tor to get them done
phobos
attribute
keb
wow "Shari Steele Executive Director (The person identified as holding the highest position of management, and therefore who would normally be responsible for carrying out the mission of the charity and leading the organization on a day-to-day basis.) $167,417"
thats good money
phobos
that salary is low for a 6m org
plus, most would have bonuses for meeting goals set by the board, etc
keb
too high imo. i dont believe in paying what the market will bear. it gets you a certain kind of people
(Action) ducks under cover of #nottor
nsa
or: phobos committed revision 21003 (/website/trunk/include): update centos to 5.4
Piet
i'm glad mostif not all of you still seem to have sane mindsets, i'll revisit this topic ion ~2 years ;-)
phobos
hopefully, we won't have changed our mindset
keb
you can see sanity in the rough consensus and working code
Piet
yes, hopefully. :) thanks for keeping this wonderful and needed software and project/community alive.
keb
thanks for participating
Piet
;-)
oh, another question before i go back to idling here... Has there been research on how prone to DPI Tor is?
keb
dots per inch?
Piet
mor elike deep packet inspection, sorry
keb
depends how vulnerable TLS is to that
Piet
Well tls is a transport layer, but Tor is a protocol. Some DPI systems can detect encrypted traffic by specific protocol specific patterns.
phobos
we purposely look like a browser talking ssl to a website
not to say that with careful research, someone can't find something unique
but i believe the current state of dpi can't tell the difference
at least, as far as systems deployed at banks, iran, and china haven't been able to tell
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