logs archiveIRC Archive / Freenode / #oracle / 2010 / June / 17 / 1
Ramen
in a nested trigger can you get the value from when the first trigger fired?
Xgc
Ramen: Probably not directly. But you might be able to use an intermediate table. I've never tried.
Ramen
man i hate triggers and mutating tables :(
epicurus
RJarett
RJarett
huh
epicurus
remember me?
RJarett
nope
epicurus
we talked a few weeks ago abour oracle certs and stuff, you advised me to look at nosql
RJarett
ahh
         

epicurus
and yuis2 and node.js
yui3 i mean
RJarett
not a clue
lol
epicurus
dude you're getting senile. but that's ok.
RJarett
people on irc are just lines of text to me to be forgotten after
unless they are paying for help
epicurus
yeah me too for the most part
RJarett
ive been on irc like 15 years
alot of people
epicurus
no i don't need help, i wondered what you think of xml databases and marklogic
and xquery
RJarett
abused
epicurus
abused?
RJarett
usually used only in cases where someone wants to charge alot of money for simple solutions under the guise of extensibility
epicurus
hmm, but doesn't relational databasing with sql sort of get in the way of xml
RJarett
do you have millions or billions of xml docs?
no
why would it?
oracle have been able to process xml for a decade
epicurus
it seems like an unecessary layer
RJarett
and even before official support, intermedia text and context could handle it
how do you think these other things do it?
epicurus
i don't know
i'm trying to learn about it
RJarett
they just break it up into nodes of the doc
epicurus
are you sure?
RJarett
oracle was one of the first dbs of any type to handle xquery
oracle was pushing xml in the db since 98-99
they had cnn and a few others agencies doing it
epicurus
but if you're using a relational model, is there any point in xml?
it seems redundant
RJarett
do you know what xmldb is?
         

epicurus
not exactly, i know its the oracle implementation
RJarett
http://www.oracle.com/technology/tech/xml/xmldb/index.html
epicurus
so what is the significance of nosql
RJarett
if its data you dont care about
and you can afford to lose
but you have an asston of it
pseudo structured
epicurus
i'm interested in data mining, machine learning, semantic web, etc
RJarett
if its delayed or doesnt show up every now and then no one cares
its like facebook. if someones update doesnt show up who really gives 2 sh*ts
epicurus
but also publishing and document/data warehousing etc
hmmm
RJarett
unless you dup your data on a ton of nodes, you cant guarentee it
and you hope you know what node its on
epicurus
yeah
RJarett
also realize that these companies are caching everywhere they can
result caches
fusion io on the serves to be solid state and data caches
web caching
that is causing all sorts of non-realtimeness
epicurus
so you're saying dedicated xml databases are worthless because you still need all those features found in the mature rdbms?
RJarett
no
epicurus
do you think xml databases are going anywhere? or is it a niche thing
RJarett
niche
less now than there used to be
but i have never been overly fond of xml
you really only see it pushed now as an alternative to ini files
and crap you could do better other ways
its not for interchange
epicurus
but language and document definitions
RJarett
the EDI via XML revolution died a long time ago with CommerceOne, ePropose and others
epicurus
oh
RJarett
no one uses it for language and doc definitions
you think odt or open office crap is really portable?
epicurus
it should be if it complies with the DTD i would think
RJarett
lol
epicurus
well, MS office is xml now
RJarett
when was that last time a DTD or domain was properly used?
its always just copied and pasted from something else
or "transitional"
epicurus
properly seems to be the keyword, if it's not checked against the DTD, no it probably won't comply
but MS office is xml now, that's the standard format for them, it seems someone is using it
RJarett
hardly
try opening and editing a docx in another app
lets say a pda or smartphone
or an older version of office even with a plugin or viewer
epicurus
then let me ask you, what niches do you see dedicated xml databases being good for
any?
RJarett
Im sure there are some
but its not the only solution for it
And it is as much "lockin" as another solution
epicurus
but at least it's standardized
RJarett
no it isnt
huge misconception
sql is 'standardized'
run something from oracle in mssql or mysql which are the same ansi standards version
epicurus
oracle doesn't use proprietary extensions?
RJarett
what do you mean?
epicurus
i thought they added some of their own sh*t in
RJarett
everyone does
but that are all ansi compliant to a certain level
epicurus
ok
RJarett
the problem is, that stuff isnt really very useful for how itll actually need to be used
epicurus
so it doesn't come up much
RJarett
standards cover bare minimum
epicurus
so are a lot of people using xmldb to drive their websites?
RJarett
i hope not
but maybe
round peg, square hole
you can
may be useful for a news site
or catalog
but eh
epicurus
so more just documented oriented stuff
document i mean
RJarett
yeah
maybe medical or scientific stuff
there may be niches but it wouldnt apply to everything in the niche
xml can encapsulate binary
epicurus
publishers seem to like it
RJarett
im sure
thats what we were using it for over a decade ago
but ive seen it abused way more than used well
epicurus
what about for data mining
i guess there's no advantage
RJarett
what are you talking about?
why would you add more crap to your data?
unwanted overhead and layers to it
epicurus
well, because of the need for pattern recognition and such
RJarett
thats not data mining
epicurus
different ontologies for different things
RJarett
and XML dbs dont care about patterns in that way
epicurus
yeah
i guess what i'm thinking is if more stuff appears in xml form on th web
but it doesn't seem to be happening
RJarett
lol
yeah people have been saying that for over a decade
it would be the next big thing
everything would be xml
epicurus
yep
RJarett
financial transactions instead of EDI
purchases withc ommerce one
epicurus
but ajax is quite popular
RJarett
knowledge brokers with vignette
ajax isnt xml
epicurus
but it uses xml
RJarett
its snippets + javascript
its not xml
it doesnt need xml
epicurus
yeah it's sort of an ad hoc xml
RJarett
just because something returns <whatever>blah</whatever> doesnt make it xml
since it doesnt need to return it like tjat or any other way
epicurus
yes, that's true
but the basic idea is there, i don't know why xml hasn't caught on more
RJarett
because it doesnt need to
epicurus
i guess there's just no incentive for people to share data
not in business, anyway
RJarett
or people havent had a hard time sharing data already
epicurus
well the idea was we'd have a web that is more than sh*t soup you know
RJarett
and what do we have?
any info we need anytime anywhere
epicurus
sh*t soup
RJarett
what would be any better?
epicurus
yeah if you know exactly what you're looking for, we have that
RJarett
you dont need to know anything near what you are looking for
xml wouldnt help in any way
epicurus
if you are trying to learn something, like me, you're sort of out of luck
RJarett
what the fu*k are you talking about?
if you dont like it.. theres the old way of going to a library
going to a card catalog
hoping they have info on what you want
or wow the new technology
gopher://
and hoping you have access
ill take a web with info about everything
the problem with lack of data of certain topics is only due to ownership of data
epicurus
but what i want is a way to visualize trends and have the network show me things i am not exactly asking for
RJarett
DMCA
then fu*king use google trends
epicurus
emergent properties
RJarett
but trends are stupid and lie
epicurus
google trends just shows you what people are searching for
i want to know what people are thinking about, not what they are searching for
RJarett
and?
epicurus
the collective unconscious
RJarett
how will xml magically solve that?
you need a real job and to stop wasting time on BS
epicurus
i don't say it will, but i'm thinking of this from a linguistic angle
RJarett
parse all twitter and trend off that
yeah thats pretty stupid
epicurus
so i'm exploring the semantic web and xml and why it isn't working
what's stupid
RJarett
because you speak one of the worst languages on the planet
thats a start
epicurus
huh?
RJarett
and xml would help in none of it
epicurus
xml was supposed to help us exchange and aggregate stuff on the web
RJarett
not really
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