logs archiveIRC Archive / Freenode / #emacs / 2010 / June / 8 / 1
cvandusen
What happens when you go against the grain: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Media/helen-thomas-resigns-telling-israeli-jews-home/story?id=10847378
kodein
the nail that sticks out get hammered down!
JordiGH
http://jordi.platinum.linux.pl/piccies/poland-ball-israel.png
Everything's simpler with comics.
But as simple as Ms Thomas would have us believe.
_AID_
insoviet russia, hackers love you
JordiGH
Hackers love me already <3
qDot_
Wow.
The mid east conflict as portrayed by hacky sacks.
JordiGH
They're polandballs!
Well, countryballs in general, I guess.
damd
what are the two other arab flags?
i mean the ones that are not palestine
JordiGH
Saudi Arabia is one, isn't it?
         

damd
oh, right
i mean the other two
JordiGH
And Jordan.
Wow, I knew that! But I looked them just to be sure.
damd
two of them look just like each other but one has three stars and one has two
technomancy
Jordan is still pretty secular these days though, right?
JordiGH
looked them up
damd
so i was wondering if they are the same?
what the hell
jordan is the one getting smashed?
_AID_
In soviet russia, smashed is jordon!
damd
seriously though, if jordan is the one getting smashed, i don't get it at all
okay so JordiGH, you seem to be wrong, it's not jordan, it's palestine
but what are the other two flags!?
JordiGH
One of them is Jordan!
the one that looks like Cuba but with different colours.
damd
no, that's palestine
JordiGH
That's the one I was talking about.
damd
jordan looks exactly like it but with a white star in the red part
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan
JordiGH
I mean in the sixth panel.
Oh, you're talking about the first panel.
damd
oh, *that* one
listen, two of the flags are still unidentified
could someone please tell me what they are?
JordiGH
Syria.
That's two stars.
technomancy
last I heard Syria wouldn't even let foreigners in if they'd visited Israel.
damd
could the three-starred one be iraq?
technomancy
well, they would, but they made you lie about it before they'd let you in.
JordiGH
No, that's got Allah's name, I think.
What's south of Israel?
damd
iraq's old flag has three stars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_iraq
         

JordiGH
Oh, that could work.
Educated by Polandball comics. :-/
damd
heh: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/MiddleEastFlags.svg
they all look the same!
ecadre
syria, iraq, saudi arabia, jordan, palestine
jlf
they do share a common color palette...go figure
damd
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/PKK.svg
there we go
sohail
(Action) patents the for loop
JordiGH
A Method and Device For Iteratively Repeating Machine Instructions As Implemented On Electronic Arithmetic-Logical Units
pjb``
sohail: there's some previous art...
sohail
lol JordiGH has done this before
JordiGH
Patents are easy.
sohail
should patent a formal language for patent applications
I don't quite understand why some things should be patentable and not others
if designs for physical things can be patented, there should be some way to protect algorithms
maybe they need to get more specific or something
cvandusen
let's patent leather shoes
JordiGH
Protect the poor little algorithms.
Save the algorithms! And the whales.
The defenseless algorithms, little darlings.
jlf
sohail: 'things' often require a substantial amount of capital to r&d, algorithms not so much
sohail
jlf: time is capital
why is money more important than time
jlf
i said not so much, not not at all
sohail
ok so patents are regressive
innovation doesn't matter
jlf
?
sohail
just investment?
JordiGH
sohail: we gotta make laws or they'll steal our intellectual properties and then we won't have any intellect left.
Intellects like national designation, for example.
quotemstr
(Action) needs glasses.
JordiGH
quotemstr: Of beer?
quotemstr
For eyes.
sohail
if "those more important things" deserve patents, then so does software
if software doesn't, then neither do they
jlf
sohail: wtf are you even talking about?
sohail
I go with the latter
jlf, you said "some things require more r&d"
implying that they are more valuable
jlf
no
sohail
so why do they deserve patents
quotemstr
Not another software patent debate.
yonkeltron
.seen ams
birny
ams was last seen quitting at 2010-05-16 19:04:15 GMT (22 days, 2 hours, 40 minutes, 57 seconds ago).
yonkeltron
i think you're safe
cvandusen
This isn't so much a debate as a confusion
jlf
implying that companies are less likely to risk tens of millions of dollars developing IP without a time-limited monopoly granted by the patent system to give them the opportunity to recoup their investment and make a fair profit
i'm not defending software patents
quotemstr
jlf: You know it doesn't work like that in software.
Pharmaceuticals, sure. Not software.
sohail
jlf, I don't see why this is important
money and time are both capital
software requires more time than money, true
for example
jlf
sohail: it's important because people get all, "grr, patents bad!!@!" because of some dumb software patents
sohail
this goddamn build which refuses to reproduce problems
jlf: oh good, so you have no real explanation
jlf
sohail: i explained it up above
cvandusen
sohail: wtf are you talking about?
let's connect the dots
sohail
you didn't quite explain why you MUST spend millions of dollars in order for your invention to be patentable
or why it MUST be a physical thing
all you said is something about R&D and millions of dollars and people being afraid to invent
cvandusen
good grief
jlf
<sohail> I don't quite understand why some things should be patentable and not others
AimHere
I thought the ostensible purpose of patents was to secure a temporary monopoly in order to cover the costs of inventing something
jlf
sohail: i was answering why some things should be patentable
sohail
and I spent 3 years inventing this cool algorithm
AimHere
The cost of 'inventing' software ideas or business methods is roughtly 0, give or take
jlf
sohail: which one?
AimHere
Nobody spends 3 years inventing an algorithm
sohail
right
jlf
sohail: link?
sohail
AimHere: sure they do...
jlf: it was an example
AimHere
In fact, is there such a thing as a professional algorithm designer?
jlf
an example of something which turns out not to exist
sohail
yes, in finance
you develop them all the time
technomancy
AimHere: yes, though they are more commonly called "professors"
quotemstr
Wooo!
sohail
and sometimes it takes years
quotemstr
The last barrier to my starting at Microsoft is gone.
JordiGH
AimHere: The ostensible purpose of patents isn't to give people money. It's to prevent secrets.
quotemstr
My background check came through! They never did find out about that Czech arms smuggling deal from way back when.
Whew.
JordiGH
AimHere: Giving people money is one way to make them cough up their secrets.
jordanb
rudybot: quote
rudybot
Let's rebuild our system in Java.
jordanb
rudybot: quote
rudybot
I'LL TELL YOU WHO'S A RECORDING!
jordanb
rudybot: quote
rudybot
I blame Kraftwerk.
jordanb
rudybot: quote
rudybot
Let's learn eunichs.
cvandusen
quotemstr: or maybe that fit in with their plans.
jlf
JordiGH: it's to prevent secrets by incentivizing inventors with money
AimHere
True, JordiGH. Means to an end n'all
quotemstr
rudybot: You mean .NET. .NET is incredible. The CLR is mother. The CLR is father. You love the CLR. The CLR loves you.
rudybot
quotemstr: emacs is quite incredible, I even solved the backslash problem with "c-auto-align-backslashes"
jordanb
Let's tell Israel to get the hell out of Palestine.
quotemstr
(Action) scans the channel with his red optical laser implant.
jordanb: Then get fired for it.
jordanb
quotemstr: You getting started early on the doublethink eh?
sohail
jordanb: you better resign from your job
JordiGH
AimHere: Copyright's purpose is more like that, give people money in hopes that they'll produce things. The idea with patents is that people are going to be making things anyways, but without patents they won't tell us how they did them.
quotemstr
jordanb: What doublethink? There is only Microsoft and... filth. Filth must be eradicated.
AimHere
sohail, are you telling me that the guys who invent algorithms to make money need a monopoly on the idea, because the money they make from the implementation of the idea itself doesn't make them enough money?
sohail
AimHere: absolutely not, stop being emotional
AimHere
I'm not being emotional. Your example was kindof bogus.
sohail
it was an example
technomancy
quotemstr: so what's the timetable?
sohail
you are totally emotional
AimHere
It was a bogus example
sohail
"you make money so how can you want more?"
that is emotional
quotemstr
jordanb: The distinctiveness of other software will be incorporated into our own. Resistance is futile. :-)
AimHere
You didn't read what I said.
quotemstr
technomancy: A few weeks. I think I'll start the last Monday in June.
technomancy
cool
quotemstr
Also, now that I have a financial interest in software patents, I'm 100% for them.
jordanb
What she said was reprehensible but considering she's lebonese-american and just a few years ago, Israel was indiscriminatly bombing civilians in her mother country, I have a hard time blaming her.
AimHere
The point was that if someone's got an idea purely for making money through financial jiggery-pokery, why does it need a patent?
quotemstr
I have always supported software patents. What are you talking about? :)
AimHere
I thought the means by which a patent operates was securing a monopoly, then money.
JordiGH
Yeah.
Tell us how you did it, and we promise to not compete with you for a while.
That's basically what patents are.
Or are supposed to be.
jordanb
That's what they *were* until they started writing them in code.
chuckkh
hi folks. Using 23.1.1 on Debian GNU/Linux, and from time to time the echo area doesn't appear at all when starting GNU emacs
jlf
chuckkh: what does that have to do with patents?
chuckkh
I haven't seen any evidence of this happening to others on Google
jlf: sorry, my bad
jlf
:)
fledermaus
chuckkh: are you using kde or gnome or some funky wm that does odd things with window management?
johnsu01
chuckkh: are you sure the frame isn't just a size that puts the echo area off the screen?
chuckkh
fluxbox, AFAIK it does very little with window management
johnsu01
chuckkh: that has happened to me before
chuckkh
yeah, I see the dock under emacs, and other windows
johnsu01
chuckkh: just to be sure, change the font to something smaller and see what happens
fledermaus
probably fluxbox is setting the window size _before_ emacs has set its font and needs to resize itself
chuckkh
it usually seems to happen if I open a second frame from the command line, but this time no
fledermaus: interesting
AimHere
Hmm, I run 23.1.1 on Debian Sid, and I have no emacs problems
sohail
"The point was that if someone's got an idea purely for making money through financial jiggery-pokery, why does it need a patent?"
seriously
that is what I said you said
JordiGH
chuckkh: There's some sort of weird bug in 23 that it doesn't resize its frames until the wm does.
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