logs archiveIRC Archive / Freenode / #emacs / 2010 / June / 7 / 1
JordiGH
God, people create such horrible website with Microsoft Active Live Windows Server Deluxe Professional Edition Pages.
websites
Kiba
human incompetence is a natural state of thing
cvandusen
Kiba: I guess the Singularity is farther away than we think then
JordiGH
Hm, this page looks dodgy.
How can I tell if it's just a crappy page or if it's a scam?
It's asking for money.
No Fear?
Isn't that a surfing brand?
http://www.state.gov/s/ocr/c11528.htm
shabble
there should be some sort of criminal penalty for naming important legal objects with some horrific backronym
quotemstr
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/education/06pets.html?hp
cvandusen
backronyms are inherently horrific
quotemstr
Fuck you, bourgeois New York Times editors.
What about all the people who can't afford college at all?
kodein
education isn't free? what kind of backwards country are you in?!!
         

cvandusen
What the hell is "helicopter parenting"?!
shabble
I was just wondering that
yonkeltron
cvandusen: when the parent hovers around the child *constantly*
kodein
it's hovering over them ready to rescue them at any time
yonkeltron
kodein: it's more than that
it's also called black hawk parents
cvandusen
kodein: no free education, no free health insurance. At least their consistent
legumbre
Talk to your kids about roflcopters. They're going to learn about it somewhere.
yonkeltron
when they stay there to give their kids every possible advantage by advocating for them *constantly*
cvandusen
*they're*. Holy fu*k, what's wrong with my fingers today
yonkeltron
man, college is expensive
healthcare is too
kodein
yonkeltron: isn't that curling parenting?
when you sweep ahead of them all the time
yonkeltron
but there's a debate about what types of education should be subsidised
cvandusen
"Sweep the legs!"
yonkeltron
because right now, you can get public loans up to a certain point for school
no matter what you want to study
so if you go earn a master in english
and can't pay it back, the public doesn't suffer too much
kodein
cvandusen: that's cobra parenting?
yonkeltron
which happens all the time
but then you can take out private loans
cvandusen
kodein: :D
yonkeltron
student loans are the next bubble market
cvandusen
(Action) nods
shabble
hopefully they'll all go bankrupt before I have to pay it off
         

kodein
I'd like a scheme where you can get student loans, and if you take out a degree and start paying back, it'll get written down some
shabble
although I have a sneaking suspicion it doesn't work like that
yonkeltron
because private loan agencies have been paying for people to go get high degrees in anthropology
kodein
no luck of my loan institution going bankrupt, really, as it's a governmental thing
yonkeltron
shabble: it does not.
kodein
otoh I'm on the government payroll too :)
yonkeltron
right but then the question is whether the public should be contributing subsidies to every tom, di*k, harry and jane who want to study poetry at the cost of other students whose degrees would enable them to gain specialized skills which are *marketable*
i believe firmly that we need to subsidize the arts
but in america, you get a liberal arts degree and you *might* have a well-rounded education
but you almost def haven't gained any job skills
nothing which you didn't have before
cvandusen
yonkeltron: exactly
My brother got a liberal arts degree, then got into computers and got completely different training for that.
yonkeltron
i went to a liberal arts and science school. guess which half of the school has jobs
cvandusen
All he got from the lib arts degree were some good book recommendations
yonkeltron
which are important
offby1
madpickle: If you're not eatin' Wham, you're not eatin' ham.
yonkeltron
society needs writers and artists just as much as we need engineers and scientists
but the proportions are all wrong
which is partially the fault of high school
college is not supposed to be the place where you 'find yourself'
it's supposed to be the place which prepares you to join the rest of the world on our march forward
high school does a sh*tty job of helping kids these days figure out what they want
cvandusen
I'm all for apprenticeships as per Paul Grahams essay.
yonkeltron
interesting
anyone here german?
i knew a fellow whose 15-yo daughter decided she wanted to be a nurse so she went into half-day training to get her certified as a basic nurse (or something) by the time she graduated
then she would have the option to do something like a 2 year advanced nursing program to get more chem, bio and the like
JordiGH: if you get sick, you can go to the pharmacist for medication, right?
JordiGH
yonkeltron: I think so.
quotemstr
Why do nurses need to know chem and bio?
They just forget all that stuff anyway.
It's useless; nursing is a vocational application of skilled labor, not a research position involving theory.
yonkeltron
JordiGH: right, in america, you can't
quotemstr
It's a waste of resources to teach theory to people who will never need it.
yonkeltron
quotemstr: fine, then she doesn't have to go the extra 2-year
quotemstr
We'd have more, cheaper nursing staff if we didn't require these topics.
yonkeltron
in america, your pharmacist can't give you drugs without a doctor's permission
shabble
surely you have OTC stuff?
yonkeltron
i understand if you have an infection of some sort, in some countries your pharmacist can give you antibiotics and such
shabble: yeah but nothing which does much
JordiGH
yonkeltron: I'm in America
madpickle
value is not a product of education but supply and demand.
yonkeltron
shabble: pain analgesics
JordiGH: i though you were in mexico
shabble
yonkeltron: antibiotics are pretty regulated in most places, I think
JordiGH
yonkeltron: Oh, not you. I thought you knew where Mexico is.
madpickle
Spain used to be pretty lax about their antibiotics
shabble
due to retards taking half a course, or using them on viral infections, etc.
yonkeltron
shabble: interesting.
madpickle
you could easily buy fairly strong stuff OTC
JordiGH
yonkeltron: I think it's technically illegal to get medication without prescriptions, though.
madpickle
they've changed the urles recently but most will turn a blind eye.
yonkeltron
yeah, we send our pharmacists to 4-year degree programs only to have them count out pills and look at computer screens which tell them about drug interaction
JordiGH
yonkeltron: You really don't know what America means, eh?
shabble
my biggest pharmaceutical gripe is the retirement of psuedoephedrine sinus tablets because of the meth labs/scares
yonkeltron
JordiGH: hardy.
shabble: haha. that's real in many places
quotemstr
shabble: They're hardly retired though.
mstr
shabble: in US? since when?
quotemstr
I can still get them, though it's a pain.
They're behind the counter now.
shabble
quotemstr: this is UK, and we don't even have a problem
yonkeltron
shabble: you go to dirt-poor communities in the middle of nowhere america and that's where the meth comes from
shabble
and they're becoming harder to find
quotemstr
shabble: Ah, the UK. V for Vendetta was a future documentary.
shabble
quotemstr: pretty much :/
as soon as I find a country that sucks less and has jobs that I'd like to do, I'm out of here.
quotemstr
I'd wager the US actually sucks less.
yonkeltron
i've seen plenty of places where they have to call the manager of the store to unlock the case with the sudafed because the employees had been paid off by the local drug lords to smuggle the pills out
when i say drug lords, i mean whatever local idiot managed to not blow himself up in the home-made meth lab built in the bottom of an abandoned building
though i'd heard of meth labs built under old gas stations
like, in the petrol tanks
shabble
I was reading a DEA presentation somewhere
stating that 25% of methlabs are found by explosion.
mstr
last december it was hard to find places that sold sudafed to foreigners
yonkeltron
shabble: the other way is that they track the water bills
apparently meth labs need a ton of water
shabble: so they're building near local streams or creaks
to scoop up water
less chance of detection
quotemstr
Grr
dropdrive
madpickle: Thanks (for the autosave pointer).
quotemstr
Just legalize the damn stuff.
Banning popular drugs always causes more harm than good.
shabble
meth is pretty nasty stuff
quotemstr
Now I can't use an unusual amount of water or power, *even if I pay for it*, without getting my front door busted down by jackbooted thugs in the middle of the night.
shabble: So is alcohol.
And nicotine is worse.
fledermaus
quotemstr: paint the door with LSD
ngz
Talking about drugs, configuring .emacs shouldn't even be legal.
woodworks
i don't believe i've ever heard __anyone__ advocate legalizing meth
fledermaus
methanol or crystal meth?
yonkeltron
woodworks: i agree
fledermaus
anyway, we know prohibition doesn't work.
quotemstr
woodworks: It's not worth the collateral damage banning it entails.
fledermaus
that was proved comprehensively by, well, the total abysmal failure of the prohibition
woodworks
bullsh*t, human life is always more important than collateral damage
quotemstr
woodworks: Go live in Singapore then.
woodworks
no, you go, you're the one complaining
quotemstr
woodworks: Part of living in a free society is the acceptance that something bad might happen to you someday.
fledermaus
the fact that it remains the mainstream policy of all the major parties in pretty much every country is down entirely to bullsh*t, media scare stories, and the curshing failure of democracy when the voting populace is apathetic, ignorant and uneducated.
crushing
quotemstr
woodworks: Do you advocate banning forks, pens, and other sharp objects because they might end a life or two per year?
woodworks: That's the logical conclusion of your "preserve life at all cost" philosophy.
yonkeltron
what's a jackboot
woodworks
do you really think that is a valid arguement?
again i say bullsh*t
cvandusen
,g jackboot
fsbot
quotemstr
woodworks: What about the millions and millions of otherwise-productive people in prison for minor drug offenses?
fledermaus
yonkeltron: item of footwear favoured by the nazis
quotemstr
woodworks: It's only bullsh*t if you can identify a way to logically separate your meth argument from an argument against forks.
yonkeltron
fledermaus: yeah, i'm familiar with the nazis.
fledermaus: just don't know what a jackboot is
woodworks
meth and forks are inherently separate
quotemstr
woodworks: Now, if you want to talk about there being a necessary tradeoff between social cost and the preservation of lives, we can have a discussion.
yonkeltron
see how evil college is?
fledermaus
yonkeltron: it's shorthand for "power crazed authoritarian thug"
quotemstr
woodworks: But instead, you're arguing that social cost doesn't matter which puts you in an inconsistent position unless you ban *everything* harmful.
yonkeltron
fledermaus: gawtcha
fledermaus
quotemstr: nobody who actually cares about the truth or making the world a better place to live in is actually in favour of prhibition, and yet we seem to be stuck with prohibition
ngz
I can see how forks can help a society, but meth ?
quotemstr
fledermaus: It's because of people like woodworks who can't see past their emotional opposition to drugs.
fledermaus
it's one of the main reasons I've given up on democracy.
quotemstr
ngz: It's not so much that forks can help as banning meth causes all sorts of problems, like, you know, hundreds of millions of law-abiding, ordinary people being denied access to harmless medication.
woodworks
quotemstr: you're blowing out your ass. I'd be willing to wager I know __far__ mroe about drugs than you
from a recreational standpoint
do you know anyone who has used meth more than once?
yonkeltron
woodworks: that was funny.
quotemstr
woodworks: You're probably right, but your point is irrelevant. I don't need to know about the specifics of drugs to know about how laws against them have corroded our society.
fledermaus
cannabis is banned despite it being far less harmful than either alcohol or tobacco
yonkeltron
woodworks: i dunno if it was meant to be.
fledermaus: has medical merit, as well
fledermaus
yonkeltron: right, there's that too.
plus we know prohibition just makes the criminals more powerful
it's how the mafia got its foothold in the US, iirc.
yonkeltron
booze
they'd do brilliant things, too
fledermaus
just legalise all the drugs, tax 'em, and be done with it.
yonkeltron
they'd take entire crates of alcohol, tie them to giant blocks of salt and throw them into rivers and the great lakes
they'd sign
fledermaus
you can't stop people doing whatever drugs they want to, that's been proven, well, every single time anybody has ever tried to ban any recreational drug.
yonkeltron
they'd sink
and then the salt would dissolve after the cops left
and people could just come pick up the deliveries
quotemstr
Didn't they catch on?
cvandusen
Seems like it would have been cheaper to just buy them off (if they didn't already).
yonkeltron
i dunno
but they could do it in bulk
many bottles
take a fast boat, dump it over the side
makes it lighter anyhow so they outrun the cops
if they get caught, they've got nothing on the boat!
then they'd bribe fisherman or something
quotemstr
So isn't the "21st century statecraft" solution to just invade other countries that produce alcohol?
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