logs archiveIRC Archive / Freenode / #emacs / 2010 / April / 9 / 1
dudrenov
M-x sort-lines will do that ahe_
dmhouse
ahe_: C-u M-| will replace the region with the results of the query
ams
ahe_: use vim then.
dmhouse
ahe_: so to run a buffer through a shell command, use C-x h C-u M-|
ahe_: you can bind that to a key if it's something you're going to be doing often
ahe_
dudrenov: yeah but sort is just an example. i really just want to test how emacs behaves when running filters over its contents because i have written such a filter
dmhouse
ahe_: ah don't use vim :)
*and
dudrenov
ahe_: dmhouse told you what else you can do
ams
dmhouse: maybe ahe_ did something bad...
dudrenov
prefix it with an arg
         

dmhouse
ams, what do you mean?
ams
vim is a penance for evil doers.
so sayth the church of the emacs.
dmhouse
(Action) wonders why shortcuts like C-@ exist when C-SPC is so much easier to hit. Same for C-x u
ams
dmhouse: terminals.
dmhouse
Ah, of course
I guess underscore must be available unshifted on certain keyboard layouts for C-_ to be defined. Since C-/ is obviously superior
ams
(1) There is no `C-<SPC>' character in ASCII; usually, typing `C-<SPC>' on a text terminal gives the character `C-@'. This key is also bound to `set-mark-command', so unless you are unlucky enough to have an text terminal that behaves differently, you might as well think of `C-@' as `C-<SPC>'.
^@ and ^_ are in ASCII, and supported by any terminal.
dmhouse
Why does C-SPC send C-@? (And similarly why is DEL the same as C-h?) Is that just convention or is there actually a reason?
ams
dmhouse: no keyboards i know of
jlf
,ascii
fsbot
No fortunes found
jlf
hmph
ams
dmhouse: DEL is/was C-h ...
jlf
,ascii is the american standard code for information interchange, see a nifty table at http://www.asciitable.com
fsbot
No fortunes found
ams
well, rather... you had BSPC and DEL, and uhm stuff..
jlf
,ff ascii
fsbot
(defun fs-f-ascii-art (&rest args)
(erbn-fortune "ascii-art"))
ams
dmhouse: really, do you want to know? :)
jlf
,forget ascii
fsbot
Doh! No such term ascii
         

jlf
(Action) gives up
dmhouse
,ascii
fsbot
No fortunes found
dmhouse
ams, maybe not. Just interested
ams
dmhouse: terminals where icky once upon a time..
jlf
ams: DEL is 0x7f, BS is 0x8
ams
DEL/C-h/backspace is one such interesting story
DEL and BSPC are completely different... which is why sometimes, on some terminals, you have a bit of an `strange' behaviour if you hit C-h... or BSPC or DEL...
(one should keep in mind that DEL in emacs might be BSPC on the terminal!)
(just like Alt vs. Meta)
jlf
BSPC?
ams
backspace
jlf
you're confusing the issue because BS and DEL have precise meanings
ams
you're onfusing matters.
jlf
how so?
ams
what does DEL do?
jlf
DEL doesn't "do" anything. it's merely a mnemonic for character 0x7f.
ams
sighs
23:22 /ignore jlf
really, if you want to troll, try harder.
DEL _DOES_ something, all ascii character have a behaviour
jlf
apparently stating a verifiable fact is trolling in ams' universe
ams
which a terminal performs
BSPC for example did not remove anything...
DEL cleared the current char under point
jlf
BSPC seems to be a made-up term
ams
so yo ucould do stupid things like ñ by issuing n BSPC ~
ascii is a control language, each code has a defined behaviour (which has changed), so yeah each stupid character does _something_
can one recompile emacs without compiling all lisp files?
stepnem
dmhouse: you might get an idea by contemplating the ASCII table
ams
and maybe some old computers...
teletype printers
the control chars are kind obscure today...
stepnem
(and if DEL "kinda" is control-<something>, then the <something> is '?' and not 'h')
ams
vertical spaces...
and what not.
stepnem: well, C-h is bound to the same sequence as DEL on some terminals.
jlf
ams
stepnem: which is why if you hit C-h you get DEL behaviour...
stepnem
ams: yeah, but your statement that DEL *is* C-h is misleading
ams
stepnem: well, del is 127 decimal
stepnem
right
jlf
stepnem: careful he's liable to ignore you if you try using "facts"
ams
(a funny thing, since all other control chars are low bit :)
stepnem
jlf: ;)
ams
stepnem: again, not really, depends on the terminal.
stepnem: depends on hat one is refering to as well with C-h, the keyboard sequence ignoring the scan code sent, blablabla, so yeah, C-h is DEL.
stepnem
ams: well, we're speaking about ASCII DEL, i.e. 0x7f, not the terminal erase setup
ams
erm, sorry, C-h is BSPC..
stepnem
\o/
jlf
heh, he still got the mnemonic wrong
ams
no, i'm not, BSPC is a valid mnemonic. it has been used since ASCII was created, so bugger of.
you're immensly boring
jlf
i think your ignore's broken dude
ams
no, cause i cleaned it.
jlf
ha
ams
i do on ocassion need to GC my ignore list.
dmhouse: get a puncard machine :) then ascii makes sense
stepnem
punc's not dead
jlf
,stepnem++
fsbot
Noted, jlf. One brownie-point for stepnem!
grummund
is there an equivalent of C-c C-q but for the entire buffer?
stepnem
hehe
grummund: stating what mode you're in would help
grummund
um, C ? :P
stepnem
or rather, giving the output of C-h c C-c C-q
grummund
c-indent-defun
shabble
grummund: C-x h TAB
grummund
(btw, is there a way to paste from the minibuffer after C-h c C-c C-q)
shabble
grab it from the *messages* buffer
stepnem
C-h e
grummund
aha, shabble thanks! ;)
that'll help in future
Emil
I'm in ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/windows/. which one do I choose?
shabble
stepnem: that binding's a new one for me
stepnem
let's have ams handle this ;)
shabble
,twbfix
fsbot
Most problems can be solved by installing Debian.
grummund
still no luck on indenting the entire buffer
stepnem
actually I'm astonished there is a 'windows' folder
ams
grummund: C-x h C-M-\
shabble
,dk C-M-\
fsbot
Uh oh, C- must prefix a single character, not M-
stepnem
why is it not called 'non-free-operating-systems' or something?
grummund
ams: thank you. ;)
ams
grummund: you can thank me by donating to the fsf
sz0
,dk M-C-\
fsbot
Uh oh, M- must prefix a single character, not C-
shabble
stepnem: what is this 'folder' of which you speak? ;p
Emil
stepnem are you as astonished as me as to why they tell you to download it from ftp.gnu.org but does not direct you in any way towards which is the correct file? that's linux philosohpy for you. rtfm.
stepnem
shabble: hahah, I was waiting for that
shabble
you have been infected with non-free-terminology!
ams
Emil: that isn't the GNU philosohpy though.
shabble
rtf-info-page isn't quite so memorable
ams
Emil: http://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/emacs/windows/README
Emil: anything you find unclear in that file?
+ emacs-23.1-bin-i386.zip
Download this file if you want a single installation package, and are not interested in the C source code for Emacs. After unpacking, you can optionally run the file bin/addpm.exe to have Emacs add icons to the Start Menu.
Emil
ams thank you for that.
ams

Emil: you can thank me by installing a free operating system, for example ,,gNewSense
fsbot
GNewSense is, like, [0] an Ubuntu-based distribution with all non-Free software removed, including binary blobs in the Linux kernel <http://www.gnewsense.org/>
[1] as approved by ams
ams
,forget 1 in gnewsense
fsbot
Doh! No such term in
ams
,forget
fsbot
err..No such term nil
ams
,forget gnewsense
fsbot
whoops, Syntax: , forget TERM [NUMBER or "all"]
ams
,forget gnewsense 1
fsbot
Removed entry 1 of GNewSense
Emil
ams nah. no good for this computer. linux does not provide me with good drivers for my wireless network card and my graphics card
ams
Emil: it provides you with more, freedom.
Emil
yes, freedom to not be able to surfe wirelessly and to use my graphics card. and to use a lot of power to drain my laptop quickly.
Sketch
i didn't think gnusense had anything to do with ubuntu
shabble
unfortunately, freedom from functionality is not always the right suggestion
ams
Emil: clearly that is possible, seeing that i'm doing it right now.
shabble: sure it is.
Sketch
or gnewsense, whatever it's called ;)
ams
Sketch: gnewsense is based on ubuntu LTS
shabble
as in, "stop being such a gnewsense"?
Emil
ams you're probably using a different laptop than I am, with different hardware.
ams
Emil: so your laptop is at fault, youshould have picked one that has vendors that do not lock you in with propietery software
Emil
i would say both are at fault. had some problems with the wired network as well.
driver was installed, but linux had poor support for a security protocol at my university.
ams
Emil: free software developers aren't the ones at fault, we have to jump through immense hops o figure out what drivers do since most vendors refuse to releaseany kind of documentatin
Emil
im not saying its the developers fault. im just saying that because of what you said, linux is quite un-user-friendly to me and my laptop.
ams
Emil: you can help us by switching to a free OS, and report bugs :)
shabble
Emil: out of interest, what laptop is it?
ams
Emil: sure, but by not reporting these problems, they will never be fixed... so it will never work as you expect it
Emil
shabble let me see. it is a tundra machine, model name 1557
stepnem
.oO("tundra machine"?)
ams
never heard of that..
Emil
it exists :)
ams
norwegian?
stepnem
russian?
Emil
yup, nor
ams
maybe you should convince the commie goverment in .no to release the specs for it...
i hope it isn't made by ND...
(ND was a .no company who made the most bizzar computers ever)
Emil
think aopen has something to do with it
shabble
ams: while you're at it, try a FOI request on Intel too!
ams
shabble: i'm not in the US.
Emil
but why is it so bad with non-free operating systems? is it so bad to make money?
money makes the world go round
ams
,s free-sw site:gnu.org
fsbot
Perhaps try also , sw free-sw . 1 match(es). --> free-sw
shabble
Emil: the other sense of 'free'
ams
,g free-sw site:gnu.org
fsbot
Emil
shabble how do you mean?
fsbot
http://www.gnu.org/software/software.html
ams
Emil: free as in, ,,fs
fsbot
ams: From memory, fs is [0] The freedom to run the software for any purpose
[1] The freedom to study and adapt the software to suit your needs,
[2] The freedom to redistribute the software,
[3] The freedom to distribute modified versions of the software
shabble
Emil: freedom to access teh code and modify it, rather than free as in not to pay for
jordanb_
rudybot: quote
rudybot
I'll die you.
stepnem
sounds rather interesting
Emil
yes, but that doesn't really answer my question. why should you not pay for it? i mean, free software is great! because it's free. but shouldn't one be able to make money from making software? it seems to me like you guys think the non-free guys are evil or something.
ams
Emil: nobody said that you shouldn't.
stepnem
Emil: sure, you can pay for it
Emil
and by freeing the source you risk people stealing your code
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