logs archiveIRC Archive / Freenode / #emacs / 2010 / April / 23 / 1
jemarch
mathrick: excuse me?
shabble
fledermaus: but look at that bank balance!
mstr
what is this "standing for FOSS" and why is it important?
mathrick
fledermaus: I dunno, I think that killing the BSD-licensed readline clone was a very di*kish move
jemarch
mathrick: you said that RMS has no understanding of what is acceptable for a visionary to do. And then I said that he is very effective as a visionary.
mstr
linus has made big contributions while not really standing for any big ideology
kjfletch
jemarch: "The maybe you're wrong" argument always sounds like a cop-out to me. Religious people use it alot under interrogation. ;)
fledermaus
mathrick: I was not aware of any such event, so I can't comment
mathrick
jemarch: I'm not questioning that. But he doesn't know the border past which he's no longer a visionary and just a jerk with no manners
that doesn't say he isn't effective as anything else
         

Sketch
linus's contributions and rms's contributions are rather different
bozhidar
and some really questionable advices/ideas
there was one conference on which he said something like
mathrick
Sketch: but Linus is just as much of a prick. A very different kind of prick, but I can't stand him either
bozhidar
image the perfect software solution to some problem
complete and unrivaled in every way, but with a flaw - proprietary...
mstr
mathrick: you seem to hate everyone :D
mathrick
mstr: nope, I'm just opinionated
bozhidar
and there is the sh*ttiest possible free program that does something similar
Mosu
shabble: in case you're still interested in my problem. the issue goes away when i install cperl-mode 6.2 from http://math.berkeley.edu/~ilya/software/emacs/. the 6.2 from ubuntu is actually 100kb shorter and has those problems. man how i hate identical version numbers with differing content...
bozhidar
the natural thing to do for everyone would be to use the free program...
shabble
Mosu: I'm probably going to wait til 23.2 ships with the newer one, but I'll remember if I hit the same bug :)
bozhidar
Linus is at least still pretty active at the development front
cluck
"[22:00:28]<mathrick> fledermaus: I dunno, I think that killing the BSD-licensed readline clone was a very di*kish move" <- see the problem with _foss_? anyone can take it and then kill it! otoh with free software you're always allowed to fork it when you don't like the direction it takes [even gcc was forked in the past] :)
bozhidar
that makes him bearable
mstr
I just watched the git talk video. Many people were angered by it, but I found it funny.
mathrick
bozhidar: RMS was too, and that was the bad part
it's a happy thing he's finally giving up actually messing with projects
metaperl_
where is the git talk video?
bozhidar
mathrick: well I think he started pretty well - emacs, gcc, most of the so called "core utils"
mathrick
bozhidar: starting wasn't the problem. Not giving up the maintainership until very recently was
he was very much obstructing progress in many ways
bozhidar
mathrick: you mean only Emacs, right?
mathrick
no, gcc too
         

bozhidar
because I think he gave up everything else earlier
mathrick
though gcc was given up earlier
emacs was just the last to be liberated of RMS
mstr
metaperl_: google techtalks
metaperl_
who gave it? randall schwartz? that one?
mstr
linus
cluck
mathrick: no he wasn't, it's free software, if you think you can do better fork it
bozhidar
mathrick: this is very visible change - the new maintainers are pushing the development much much faster than before
and adding quite a few new features
who knows, they might just as crazy enough to succeed with this guile idea
which I think will be a good thing in the long run for the platform
(the platform being Emacs)
cluck
mathrick: ironically enough each and every fork of gnu emacs is sub-par (how's that to show how he "held back" emacs?)
mathrick
cluck: *sigh*, again this pseudo-argument. No, I can't write a patch for every bug out there, and no, I can't fork it
fledermaus
,gentlemen
fsbot
Gentlemen, you can't fight here. This is the War Room.
cvandusen
interesting. fill-match-adaptive-prefix is complaining because a regexp is too big
mathrick
I'm tired of this argument, so I'm not gonna discuss it
fledermaus: oh yes, that one is brilliant
fledermaus
you're all over stimulated. nap time!
Sketch
it's free software. anyone can fork it
cluck
mathrick: then (and i'm quoting your dear linus here) "CODE UP OR SHUT UP!" and have a nice day :)
mstr
cluck: could the "held back" be interpreted that it took years to make xemacs "sub-par"?
kjfletch
fork you
mathrick
Sketch: look at the last time anyone tried to fork emacs and tell me how well that worked out
Sketch
xemacs is still around
bozhidar
cluck: I don't think that Lucid Emacs was sub-par Emacs for quite some time
mathrick
cluck: I hate linus, so I don't see how he'd be my dear
bozhidar
rms had let GNU Emacs to the point of total stagnation at that time
cluck
bozhidar: and fwiw the guile idea was RMS's tbw
jlf
,yow
fsbot
Gibble, Gobble, we ACCEPT YOU ---
bozhidar
cluck: he was always a great proponent of guile, so I don't find that surprising
as I said yesterday I could have imagined a better future for Emacs than this, but I think that even the guile approach will bring considerable advantages
so I naturally support it
yonkeltron
madpickle: that tip you gave me was so golden!
madpickle: the ansi-term one
madpickle
=)
yonkeltron
thank you very, very much
madpickle
np
cluck
mstr: maintaining a good project isn't about being a little better for a while, good maintainers keep the pace of evolution near constant, attracting more and new people, and so on, so yeah despite it's better features early on xemacs is a sub-par project comparatively with gnu emacs :)
madpickle
you can expect an invoice in 5-7 business days.
yonkeltron
cluck: i made some hawtness with inkscape last night
cluck
yonkeltron: that's always a good thing :D
yonkeltron
cluck: yeah, it's just that now exported PDFs take forever to render on the screen
cluck: want to see the png, though?
http://static.yonkeltron.com/m/scosug-poster-2.png
cluck
sure
yonkeltron: lol... SCO?
yonkeltron
cluck: SCOSUG
cluck: http://scosug.org
cluck: and we'll be using inkscape for our site artwork if i have anything to say about it
which i do
cluck
yonkeltron: i'm just messing with you :D (i can also google ;)
yonkeltron
cluck: hardy har. i think i might replace the lightened SCOSUG with an equivalently-sized block of explanatory text or some sh*t
cluck
yonkeltron: yeah, it's neat, i'd just be a bit careful with those alpha layers and the contrast among shades of blue, might not be too daltonic friendly (though the vast majority of daltonics has no qualms with blue)
yonkeltron
cluck: daltonics, like ie users, are not our target audience
cluck: we're working out the details. the color bar on the bottom of inkscape is handy to have. i've also been messing with agave
cluck: you know what would really take inkscape from good to great? moving to Qt.
cluck
yonkeltron: i figured as much, but i'm an a11y freak so i couldn't help myself
yonkeltron: nah, i don't buy that
yonkeltron
cluck: a11y?
cluck
accessibility
yonkeltron
ah
righto
cluck
,,a11y
fsbot
From memory, a11y is short for accessibility <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessibility>
yonkeltron
good
,,wtf
fsbot
oops, Syntax: wtf TERM
yonkeltron
,,wtf cluck
fsbot
nil ..(symbol)
yonkeltron
hehe
,wtf
fsbot
Doh! Syntax: wtf TERM
yonkeltron
,wtf cluck
fsbot
nil ..(symbol)
yonkeltron
what the fu*k, cluck?
nil.
cluck
B)
man 0 - 1 machines
mankind is so screwed when skynet reaches sentience...
leo2007
madpickle: I think I agree with most of what you said about rms. I think rms needs to understand chair mao if he ever wants to achieve something big. He is a bit short of time now.
yonkeltron
cluck: you know, i really feel like my knowledge of webbernet technologies is good (JS, (X)HTML(5), CSS, etc.) but a major gap in my knowledge is the design part. how to put it all together in a good and effective way along with making it pretty.
cluck: it's something i really want to learn.
leo2007
Chairman Mao united people on the early stage and that brought him something really big.
cluck
yonkeltron: whenever that comes up in a chat i'm having i always advise the same -- K.I.S.S.
fledermaus
KISS - Psycho Circus?
cluck
fledermaus: =)
fledermaus
Gene Simmons - Web Designer
Uthig obly by tubg I cab debign eb pageth.
yonkeltron
Richard Simmons - Web Designer
cluck
fledermaus: actually he's a very good business man has a great sense of aesthetics and knows how to target and market for his audience, which are things many web designers could learn about
fledermaus
I'm not really into the Glam Klingon look, but I'll take your word for it :)
cluck
fsbot: tell yonkeltron about kiss
fsbot
yonkeltron: KISS is short for Keep It Simple, Stupid
cluck
;)
yonkeltron
cluck: i am aware. but thank you.
cluck
yonkeltron: oh, i know, i was just showing of that i can puppet fsbot better than you :D
fledermaus
(Action) watches the prime-ministerial debate analysis.
yonkeltron
cluck: for sure. you're the puppet master
,yoq
fsbot
Your reasoning powers are good, and you are a fairly good planner.
yonkeltron
fu*k
,yow
fsbot
.. Do you like ``TENDER VITTLES?''?
phobbs
,yow
fsbot
You must be a CUB SCOUT!! Have you made your MONEY-DROP today??
cluck
fsbot: give yonkeltron a beer
fsbot
(Action) gives yonkeltron a beer
yonkeltron
hmmm
cluck: but do you have any resources for me?
cluck: i'm interested in learning
cluck
yonkeltron: i'm not sure what you're looking for exactly, lessons and tips? or software/platforms?
yonkeltron: if you're looking for articles to learn from something like http://www.alistapart.com/ might be what you want
yonkeltron
yeah, i've been checking them out
i know i lack understanding regarding the elements of design
cluck
yonkeltron: if you're more interested in the behind the curtains stuff, maybe ibm's good old developer works has some posts to suit your fancy
yonkeltron
i think i get the behind the curtains stuff
dev works is great
cluck
yonkeltron: otoh if you're looking for software to glue together what you already know, it depends first on the language and then on the (i bet) plenty of alternatives to chose from
yonkeltron: if you're just looking for ideas http://www.csszengarden.com/ is as good a place to start as any other
damd
zen garden pisses me off so much
cluck
yonkeltron: so, any and all pointers i may or not have to pass on to you really depend only on what are you looking for exactly :)
damd: why is that?
fledermaus
Â
yonkeltron
fledermaus: pardon?
damd
cluck: i'm not sure, but the smug site name probably has a lot to do with it
yonkeltron
i ching, perhaps?
fledermaus
,unicode-describe Â
fsbot
#x4DC2: HEXAGRAM FOR DIFFICULTY AT THE BEGINNING
damd
that's so useful fledermaus, thank you
yonkeltron
whow
fledermaus
?
damd
is there any way to find out what X toolkit the current emacs has been compiled with?
x-toolkit-scroll-bars is set to 'gtk but i'm not sure that's a good indicator
yonkeltron
damd: what desktop are you using?
fledermaus
(featurep 'gtk), (featurep 'motif) etc
see /sv
I'm using ERC Version 5.3 with GNU Emacs 23.1.1 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.18.6, multi-tty) of 2010-01-27.
,df emacs-version
fsbot
emacs-version is an interactive Lisp function in `version.el'.
(emacs-version &optional HERE)
Return string describing the version of Emacs that is running.
If optional argument HERE is non-nil, insert string at point.
Don't use this function in programs to choose actions according ..[Type ,more]
evil_andy
I'm using emacsclient (on gentoo) and I'm running into a problem. If I use emacsclient as my default editor for files in Gnome, I have a feeling it's opening them up in a terminal as nothing shows up on the screen. Any way to force it to use a GUI?
moljac024
when i start emacs server with emacs --daemon and connect to it for the first time, the initial buffer is the scratchpad
how can i set it so that it's the default emacs buffer
this is just a minor annoyance
aksionov
http://blogs.perl.org/users/jeffrey_kegler/2010/04/zooey-deschanel-to-star-as-ada.html
FunctorSalad_
woha! adding a defsubst to 'after-change-major-mode-hook makes my emacs frigging hard-die
not seeing a segfault message anywhere, but it just dies
to be more exact, it's not the adding, it's when the hook is invoked
leo2007
any idea which appeared first in emacs, make-symbol or intern?
tEtra
anyway to make speedbar show symlinks a different color?
fledermaus
leo2007: I'd guess they're both very old, but if one predates the other it's probably intern
FunctorSalad_
tEtra: move cursor on top of the text, M-x customize-face
it probably has a special-purpose face for it
if not, you might choose to modify that face anyway ;)
tEtra
looking now, it appears it only gets as granular as file
FunctorSalad_
customize-group speedbar maybe?
but I had 'dired' in mind, not speedbar
you might well be right for speedbar
shabble
tEtra: you might be able to hack the display function to stat the files and display accordingly
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