logs archiveIRC Archive / Freenode / #emacs / 2010 / April / 16 / 1
dmhouse
cluck: not that I don't enjoy hacking around with my editor, but Elisp is hardly a nicely designed language ;)
ashawley`: surely you always want the .el file. So typing the first few letters then TABing should always get you the one you want
ams
dmhouse: huh? yeah it is
that is just full of crock... elisp is a very nice language
dmhouse
ashawley`: in fact you can just type, e.g., M-x find-library erc RET and it'll find the right one
rgr
something somewhere has been ste so that I keep getting new frames from my emacs daemon. I am not calling emacsclient with -c. Is there someway to tell emacs to stick with one frame no matter what?
jochent
(Action) likes elisp
cluck
dmhouse: SCHEME TO THE RESCUE!
(Action) hides from the common lispers (pun intended)
ashawley`
dmhouse: You can also type M-x find-library erc ? and get completions.
rgr
dmhouse: use the generic browser setting
dmhouse
Gah, where did I put that list of things I disliked about elisp
         

ams
dmhouse: lemme guess: dynamic scope?
dmhouse
rgr: me?
rgr
it has dynamic scope
dmhouse
ams: I'm sure that was in there, yep. (Don't think it was all.) You have to admit, that's hardly a highlight
ams
dmhouse: i like dynamic scope, it is immensly useful
rgr
yes. there is no need for specific functions. browser-url-generic-program
ams
rgr: ?
dmhouse
rgr: I'm not the one customising my browse-url settings
rgr
no, but you are the one who commented on their being no chrome specific function.
didnt see the previous.
cluck
rgr is also lagged like me :)
rgr
s/their/there
cluck
what is it with rainy days?
ams
dmhouse: what else?
dmhouse
rgr: I know, and that's what I use. It's still odd though
rgr
bloody world is coming to and today. flights all over europe cancelled. mad.
ams
rgr: yay! will do more good than earth hour.
rgr
not for my business. no parties of thirsty paddies ...
ams
rgr: must be the planets... fledermaus and i have agree like five times today
technomancy
dynamic scope is awesome... as long as it's opt-in.
rgr
WHAT?
         

ams
rgr: sorry, this week... last time was today
rgr
I dont see how anyone would have anything bad to say about dynamic scoping.
ams
shurg, neither do i...
rgr
god damn this emacsclient. it keeps opening f******* frames everywhere
ams
i'd like to see a good lexical scope though
dmhouse: found the url?
cluck
the only problem with dynamic scope is everyone else DOESN'T use it, so sooner or later we end up fu*king up because we're not used to use it as it should be used
dmhouse
ams: it was a local file... not sure I've got it any more. It's been a couple of years since I wrote any serious elisp
cluck
but yeah, being able to chose among alternatives is the right thing to do :)
in the end
ams
(let ((generated-autoload-file "~/loaddefs.el")) (update-directory-autoloads "~/"))
doing that without dynamic scope would be annoying...
dynamic scope makes for extensiblity
jochent
(Action) agrees with ams
ams
yeah, sure, it can be abused just like everything...
but it is useful, nothing evil about it
rgr
Get your cape. You've pulled again.
ams
fu*k, i wish i had goto in emacs too
rgr
You do .... goto-line etc ;)
ams
ha ha ha
jochent
;oD
ams
thing i love about lisp is that you mould the language to the problem...
not the other way round
rgr
piffle
jochent
goto-line and then eval? ;oD
cluck
ams: i can see the japanese code already (progn (raber "1") (goto "1"))
ams
you write the problem nicely in english, then add a bunch of parens...
and then write some code forthe functions, done
cluck: :-)
cluck
boy would that make "why my emacs get rocked?" popular around here :D
noisesmith
common lisp has tagbody and go
ams
common lisp is also piss
i actually understand elisp.. from the bottom ... i fu*king hate cl
cvandusen
ams: why's that?
ams
cvandusen: it is piss ugly? complicated?
elisp is immensly simple
cvandusen
so simple a caveman can do it
cluck
(Action) apologizes to all japanese emacsers for the joke
ashawley`
I think the bug with find-library is the add-to-list in locate-file-completion-table.
cvandusen
and cavemen do it
jochent
(Action) searches his cavewoman
ams
really..
the thing i want with emacs would be to dump core...
on a running process...
and be able to write lisp worlds..
without having to use cl
ashawley`
,...
fsbot
[In the distance, you hear a dog bark]
rudybot
Woof.
jochent
XD
ams
should be noted, reading the emacs code is also immensly fun
jochent
ams: give example please ;oP
ams
uhm, open random file...
cvandusen
that would be random.el ;)
ams
jochent: i dunno, ccl.c
cluck
ams: that would actually be a great idea
ams
actually, fun code.. unexec.c, unexelf.c
cluck: i'd like to be able to use emacs instead of cl, for everything... with good performance..
elisp is slow... nothing weird about it...
the bytecompile doesn't do crazy optimisations...
most development to things like sbcl is optimising the compiler
cluck
ams: gather a few oldtimers and a bunch of elisp noobs, pick a random piece of code from emacs and go over it live, teaching about it and improving it if possible
ams
haha
not a bad idea
cluck
kind of like what the ubuntu guys are doing only with a sane programming language
ams
cluck: sane? java? ;-)
noisesmith
java? sane?
rgr
Java? java sucks donkeys.
ams
kinda my point...
d'uh
rgr
And JDEE is a curse on Emacs' good name ...
cluck
it would also beat the crap out of the boring exercise of reading the manual by oneself locked in the basement alone
cvandusen
cluck: Hey! That hurt...
noisesmith
cluck: but then I would have to wear pants. Reading the manual in my basement alone I don't need pants.
ams
cluck: see privmsg
cluck
cvandusen: hey, i've been there too, it's just, in the slight statistical possibility that we actually get to find a nerdy SO and pass on our genes someday i at least would like to avoid my spawn to endure the same difficulties i've met
cvandusen
cluck: testify
Cam
How do I close a buffer that I am in?
If I am in #emacs, how to I delete that.
noisesmith
C-x k
shabble
C-x k
Cam
I can switch just fine, but I am wond.. thanks
jordanb
Why did the global warmists not see the europe dust cloud coming?
,kook
fsbot
WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!!!
cluck
ams: i don't really think emacs' problem is features, just like debian's never was either, what i think lacks (and this one i actually blame on the FSF) is marketing and brand identity
isomer
jordanb: they only see thing in retrospect
jochent
moo
jlf
cluck: i think you'll find a nerdy SO at http://bit.ly/4Agih5
cvandusen
The FSF needs a social media douche bag
isomer
looking forward, all they can do is fear-monger
jordanb
cvandusen: They have one don't they?
That guy who loves mackintosh.
He' just not very good.
ams
cluck: why would the fsf do anything? it isn't the gnu project.
if anything, it is the gnu project that lacks this.
cvandusen
jordanb: Not familiar with him. Maybe they forgot the "social media" part.
ams
fsf's goalisn't to promote gnu, but to promote freedom, which they do.
cluck
ams: what we need is teaching about those great features (aka marketing) and that sadly also affects many other great gnu programs
ams
cvandusen: they have one, several, some are ops here.
noisesmith
jlf: the unfunny puns, they burn
ams
johnsu01 <--- there is one
:-)
jordanb
I'm thinking of holmes wilson.
jlf
noisesmith: you're welcome
cvandusen
full disclosure (look ma, no pants!): my SO is out nerds the nerds
cluck
ams: no it isn't but it's in the interest of the fsf to push free software and nothing does that better than a free software program that actually works and is better than the competition
jlf
yay, new gervais principle post!
ams
cluck: they do exactly that.
http://www.fsf.org/
cluck
jlf: lol :)
ams
and frankly, the less fsf has to do with gnu, the better.
jordanb
s/fsf/ams/
FunctorSalad
hmm are there any pitfalls with make-symbol? seems like gensym except the clutter isn't printed
ams
jordanb: running out of insults?
FunctorSalad
(maybe that's the pitfall right there... reparsing printed output)
ams
FunctorSalad: ?
FunctorSalad: gensym is clism....
and what clutter?
neither print anything...
FunctorSalad
the printed representation of the symbol.
why can't I compare the two just because one is from cl? ;)
ams
FunctorSalad: what print? make-symbol doesn't print anything
noisesmith
FunctorSalad: yeah the important difference is one has read / print identity
FunctorSalad
ams: printing the generated sym
(like when debugging the macro)
ams
(message "%s" (make-symbol "foo"))
?
FunctorSalad
yes (but usually pp-macroexpand)
ams
why would you are about that?
(pp-macroexpand-expression `,(make-symbol "foo"))?
fu*k if i know what youwanna do..
FunctorSalad
noisesmith: indeed (I'm not sure how often one would need that identity; I'd think you mostly print out macroexpansions for debugging)
noisesmith
FunctorSalad: or marshalling things between sessions, not a common concern
but it could reduce ambiguity while debugging, perhaps
FunctorSalad
ams: inspecting macros (why do people always have to act like you're an idiot just because of your *motives*?)
ams
FunctorSalad: cause.
FunctorSalad: why do you care about identity? that would just be confusing if you have a symbol that already existed
cluck
ams: in any case i digress, a regular online tertulia about emacs/elisp would be a great way to attract and introduce people to the emacsen world, that's what i think at least
ams
cluck: eintr?
not sure what you are on about.
noisesmith
cluck: I had a whole bunch of fun working over some supercollider code on google wave
ams
in either case...
noisesmith
as a learning tool
ams
good night..
(Action) gives cluck the chicken a kiss on the beak
cluck
ams: tertulia, soiree, social meeting, talk, interactive presentation (name it whatever suits your fancy :)
noisesmith
with some other folks also editing the code, asking each other questions about what parts of it did etc.
it made me wish I could have google wave, but in an emacs buffer
actually I still think that could have some very interesting uses
ams
noisesmith: google spies on you.
noisesmith
ams: I am ok with them reading my code, it is open source
ams
noisesmith: that is a pitty, it should be free software.
noisesmith: would you rather make it free software instead and help the fight for computer freedom?
noisesmith
it is gpl, I probably should have said free software
jlf
,collaborativeediting
fsbot
I think CollaborativeEditing is at http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?CollaborativeEditing
noisesmith
jlf: yeah I checked those out
the big problem was the minibuffer
ams
noisesmith: the gpl is a free software license, the open source community had nothing to do with it. please call it a free software license in the future, we wrote it after all...
noisesmith
if anyone was in the minibuffer, everything would hang until they left
ams: sure thing
ams
noisesmith: thanks
now,bed...
*kisses everyone in the channel*
jlf
(Action) bathes in alcohol
ams
<3 <3 peace, love and emacs!
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