logs archiveIRC Archive / Freenode / #emacs / 2010 / March / 2 / 5
twb
Not native speakers, anyway.
Just idiots trying to write <their favourite language> in elisp
quicksilver
heh
twb: Is cl stuff loaded by default now? I'm not aware of having chosen to load it explicitly, but I do seem to have remove-if-not, mapcar*, etc available
oh, org-mode requires it.
"...we have a policy that packages installed in Emacs must not
load "CL" at run time..."
presume that policy got discarded without the docs being updated.
snogglethorpe
quicksilver: no
quicksilver
snogglethorpe: no to which part?
snogglethorpe
it wasn't discarded
but things slip by
twb
This is what happens when RMS leaves the helm!
quicksilver
actually, org.el has it under eval-when-compile
so that's "OK"
I wonder what did bring it in, then
still, CL polluting my namespace does not appear to have caused the world to end.
phew.
stepnem
quicksilver: a lot of packages require 'cl inside `eval-when-compile', so if you compile the package, it will not be required at runtime
quicksilver
(Action) nods
         

dim
I fail to understand the nuance there
quicksilver
but because I didn't bother to compile org-mode, I'm just runnign it interpreted, I brought it in at runtime?
stepnem
yeah
dim
it's just so that people can rewrite cl for themselves?
snogglethorpe
dim: it's to avoid the worst of the bloat
quicksilver
Ah. I brought this upon myself, then.
dim
like not having remove-if and friends in the namespace
quicksilver
still, as I say, it doesn't seem to have caused me much pain.
dim
but hey, we all prepend our functions with a module name, don't we?
snogglethorpe
cl is a giant twisty ball of hair, and it's hard to use any of it without ending up with all of it
dim
snogglethorpe: that sounds like a good argument *for* (require 'cl)
snogglethorpe
depends on whether you like massive balls of hair or not i suppose
dim
hehe
stepnem
snogglethorpe: well, can you rather mention some concrete adverse effects you notice with cl loaded?
dim
I don't get it when I won't be happy to have a random .el had required the damn cl
stepnem
instead of the foggy metaphors...
quicksilver
snogglethorpe: but there is so much missing from elisp (it seems to me) if you don't have CL.
snogglethorpe
quicksilver: call me insane, but i'd rather do it right
cl.el is not done well
lich
good morning fine sirs
dim
the solution is to require it by default and clean it up
         

quicksilver
snogglethorpe: sure, but personally I just want to write some .el to do something.
dim
not to avoid it and pretend you don't need it
snogglethorpe
(i've done a fair bit of spelunking in cl.el in the past trying to figure out the subtleties of its itneraction with the compiler , and i still shiver when i think of the experience...)
stepnem
snogglethorpe: go ahead, do it right, we're waiting for the patches!
quicksilver
snogglethorpe: if you said to me "instead, you should require 'good-combinators and you'd be fine" I'd happily use that
but as a novice elisp programmer there doesn't appear to be an alternative.
snogglethorpe
(actually in the past I _have_ written parts of cl.el in a more modular manner, ... but i lack the energy to push for acutally trying to get those standardized)
stepnem
oh yeah
lich
how different is lisp and elisp? I plan on learning elisp so I can improve my emacs. If I decide that I like LISP, would it be a slow transition?
stepnem
lich: no, elisp *is* a lisp
snogglethorpe
lich: "lisp" is a very vague term
lich
ok, common lisp then
dim
there are differences though, and those depends if you choose to go with a scheme or a common lisp flavour
but elisp is fun and easy and rewarding :)
kensanata
Different enough. There's also a lot of difference in style.
lich
well elisp is on my TODO (thanks to org-mode :D)
I do need it to enrigh my Emacs experience
but it may catch on, so I may be starting to learn lisp all together after this. S'why I'm asking
snogglethorpe
for basic tasks, they're pretty similar
kensanata
(require 'cl) and you have a lot of CL stuff available, but the standard Emacs Lisp style is different.
lich
I see, thanks :)
anyone using erc? I got a couple of quoestion on that subject too
questions*
kensanata
lich: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/2010-02-05 indicates that we ought to have around 50 of them!
janislaw
, line wrapping
fsbot
Try: longlines truncate-lines http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/VisualLineMode
lich
ewww irssi
:D
ivan-kanis
,anyone
fsbot
ivan-kanis, From memory, anyone is Please do not ask if anyone uses, knows, is good with, can help you with <some program or library>. Instead, ask your real question and someone will answer if they can help.
lich
on, now. All of a sudden, /clear does not work in erc anymore. No major changes to my config. Ideas?
ivan-kanis
lich: it doesn't work on my ERC, you could do C-x h C-w
lich
but it used to work, which is troubling
also, it's a read-only buffer, how could I erase it? :P
atleast abbrevs work. no more t e h :D
ivan-kanis
lich: it's not read only here...
lich
it is here :|
maybe something to do with logging?
that keeps it read-only?
ivan-kanis
lich: if the buffer was read only you wouldn't be able to type anything
lich: no I am using logging
dim
rcirc ain't on the chatclient test page
lich
ivan-kanis: I issued what you told me, and I got an error that it was read-only
ivan-kanis
lich: i have no idea what's up with your ERC
lich
ivan-kanis: same here :D
might I have a look at your erc config again? lost the link :(
ivan-kanis
lich: maybe you could past your config somewhere...
lich
or that, yes
ivan-kanis
lich: sure
lich
all of it, or just the erc parts?
ivan-kanis
lich: http://kanis.fr/hg/lisp/emacs.d/ivan-erc.el
lich: just the erc would be nice
lich
http://pastie.org/849521
my current .emacs
don't laugh at it..it's a frankenstein :D
ivan-kanis
lich: ok I looked at it, no idea what's wrong, start by commenting all your erc setting and see if it works
lich: if it works, start commenting half and see if it works
lich
sound like the "Windows approach" bu ok, I'll give it a shot. That would mean that I have to restart erc everytime I do it :(. I'd rather live with it lol
kensanata
ivan-kanis: A very traditional method. :)
ivan-kanis
lich: then comment half again, on til you find what's screwing it up
Coke
not windows aproach, it's what you normally do when you can't run it thorugh a debugger
ivan-kanis
lich: I looked at your config and saw nothing weird
Coke
that and debug output printing
lich
ah, commenting half. That brings me to another question. Can you comment out multiple lines in elisp + emacs? Like in C where you have /* fdfdfdf */ ?
ivan-kanis
lich: M-;
lich: works on a region
mnemonikk
lich: there's no syntax for commenting out blocks in elisp, AFAIK.
kensanata
And C-u M-; to uncomment.
lich
oh, thanks. one other thing. Can I make part of my emacs "run" only when a certain package exists? for example I have no org-mode at work, but I use it at home. I want the org-mode part of my emacs to run only when org-mode is found, else silently ignore
my .emacs*
ivan-kanis
lich: but org is part of emacs...
mnemonikk
lich: (when (fboundp 'org-mode) ...)
lich
thanks mnemonikk . ivan-kanis mayne 23. I got 22 at work, and it's not there, trust me :)
maybe*
mnemonikk
ivan-kanis: there was a time when there org-mode was not part of emacs.
ivan-kanis
lich: you ought to get 23 at work...
lich
I can't. still on OSX Tiger
need to back up my stuff, then do a reinstall. Snow Leopard is here, just need time to do a fresh install
ivan-kanis
lich: can't you compile it? It's a pain to support differnet version...
lich
I so hate osx :'(
ivan-kanis: compiled it off the mac ports
but I only get the -nw version
(23 I mean). I want my GUI :D
ivan-kanis
lich: surely 23 can be had on OSX however I don't use it...
kensanata
Tiger is 10.4?
I'm using the latest Emacs on 10.4...
lich
it can be had, there's nighly builds of it, but not for Tiger
kensanata: really? How?
kensanata
Building from source.
lich
macports or did you download the source and build it?
kensanata
I check out the sources.
lich
kensanata: and do you run the GUI emacs? or terminal one? because I have 23 too, but terminal only. I need the Cocoa one
kensanata
I run Emacs.app
lich
so Cocoa
hmmm
ok, I should check this out
kensanata
http://www.emacswiki.org/alex/2008-12-21_Building_Emacs_on_Mac_OS_10.4
Except that CVS no longer works...
torbjorn
is it possible to change the filename of a buffer im currently working on
ie save with a new name and delete the old file
lich
kensanata: so how can I get the source then?
torbjorn: C-x, C-w to "save as"
deleting the old file needs to be done manually afaik
torbjorn
ok
pgas
there's also M-x rename-file
stepnem
torbjorn: use Dired
it will change both the filename and buffername
unlike `rename-file', IIRC
torbjorn
thanks
kensanata
lich: Check out http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/emacs/ -- git, bazaar, and CVS (?)
Ah, "Note that the CVS and Git repositories are not up-to-date."
stepnem
git and CVS are both out of date
yeah
but there's a Git repo on repo.or.cz
kensanata
Yeah, I checked it out using bzr.
stepnem
mirror of the bzr repository
kensanata
lich: Which you'll have to install as well.
lich: http://wiki.bazaar.canonical.com/MacOSXDownloads
lich
wow! I got python 2.3.5 :|
quotemstr
bzr isn't *that* bad.
lich
these machine needs update fast
quotemstr
It's not worth jumping through hoops to avoid, unlike CVS.
At least you can branch, merge, and bisect easily.
lich: RHEL5?
bob2
rhel5 has 2.4
lich
quotemstr: lol
no, osx that hasn't been updated in 3 and a half years
quotemstr
So my parents decided to send me a box of food for some reason. They sent "Uncle Ben's Instant Rice", a pop tart, canned premade tuna salad, and stuff like that.
bob2: Oh, that's right. I was thinking of RHEL4.
bob2: The last major Python project I worked on had to target that system.
Anyway, the food was *revolting*. I'd forgotten how nasty processed food can be.
bob2
quotemstr: condolences
quotemstr
I ate the pop tart, thinking, "Oh, it can't be that bad. I'm hungry, and also lazy."
I was sick for a day and couldn't sleep. How can people live like that?
(Yes, there's probably some tolerance effect, but still...)
stepnem
heh
quotemstr
If it's *canned*, it's probably okay. But a foil wrapper generally spells some kind of gastrointestinal doom.
Anyway...
Macports has an up-to-date Python.
lich
yeah updating macports now
quotemstr
What ever happened to fink anyhow?
lich
not sure. haven't used it in a while
Installing python26 now. Finally I can run blender on this thing
quotemstr
*blink*
Blender is written in Python?
twb
quotemstr: what happened was that Apple didn't endorse it
bob2
no
twb
The whole reason that fink and macports and all that other bullsh*t exists is because Apple wasn't prepared to use dpkg (because it's GPL, not LGPL).
bob2
it has an insane scripting interface
quotemstr
twb: gcc is GPLed too.
twb: Your point? A package manager doesn't contaminate its packed programs.
twb
quotemstr: have a look at the nexenta ksolaris CDDL vs. dpkg GPL fight for details.
I'm not going to attempt to repeat it from memory, because I'll get it totally wrong.
quotemstr
This looks like an amicable thread: "Nexenta devs = liars and thieves"
twb
Haha
The nexenta position seems to be "if we don't ask any actual lawyers, then we can pretend common sense applies"
quotemstr
Oh, fu*k that.
http://www.osnews.com/thread?57597
They're arguing about libc, but the GPL makes an exception for system libraries.
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