logs archiveIRC Archive / Freenode / #emacs / 2010 / March / 16 / 1
zkamm
quotemstr: re-reading, yeah it does. But still, why should you be able to patent a data-structure?
quotemstr
zkamm: You shouldn't.
zkamm: It's still bad of course.
zkamm
have any patents like this come up in court yet?
quotemstr
Well, there's Bilski.
One interesting point one of the SCOTUS judges made is that in the 19th century, there were no patents on methods to train horses, even though such a thing would have been highly useful.
rryouumaa
,skiplist
fsbot
[google] http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs-en/mon-doc-help-utils.el
rryouumaa
,g skiplist
fsbot
[google] ftp://ftp.cs.umd.edu/pub/skipLists/skiplists.pdf
http://iamwww.unibe.ch/~wenger/DA/SkipList/
zkamm
any advice on where to start reading the emacs source? beside int main?
         

yonkeltron
of all of the channels on irc, #emacs in my favorite
quotemstr
zkamm: What do you want to accomplish?
zkamm: It's like asking where to start reading books in a library.
Hrm.
legumbre
yonkeltron++
quotemstr
"Most split-phase residential meters in the United States are unable to detect neutral currents. However, modern tamper-resistant meters can detect and bill it at standard rates"
How does one detect *neutral* return current? There's no voltage in the neutral line!
yonkeltron
quotemstr: looking for a lack of positive or negative current, perhaps?
zkamm
quotemstr: just curious about the internals of emacs
quotemstr
Doesn't that happen when no electricity is being used?
zkamm: If you want to know about editing, read simple.el. If you want to know about the Lisp interpreter, lisp.h.
zkamm
quotemstr: thanks
hakunin
total newbie, been back and forth with vim and emacs, coming from textmate, connecting much better with emacs than vim, have tons of questions, here's one...
quotemstr
hakunin: Obviously. Emacs is the One True Editor.
yonkeltron
hakunin: i'm going to let you finish
quotemstr
Oe can study it for a lifetime and still not know it.
hakunin
how can I prevent the debugger from popping up and replacing my window?
yonkeltron
hakunin: but emacs had the best music video of all time
hakunin: OF ALL TIME
hakunin
when i do something wrong
lol
quotemstr
Are you talking about the lisp debugger?
hakunin
yonkeltron: that's so 2009
yonkeltron
hakunin: OF ALL FUCKING TIME
hakunin: the lisp debugger covers your entire window?
hakunin: or just part of it?
hakunin
quotemstr: the lisp debugger telling me "hey, something is wrong"
quotemstr: like i accidentally pressed bad combination
jlf
big bugs demand a big debugger amirite?
         

quotemstr
You probably have ,,dv debug-on-error turned on
fsbot
*Non-nil means enter debugger if an error is signaled.
Does not apply to errors handled by `condition-case' or those
matched by `debug-ignored-errors'.
If the value is a list, an error only means to enter the debugger
if one of its condition symbols appears in the list. ..[Type ,more]
yonkeltron
jlf: YAWAI!
hakunin
quotemstr: yes, likely
yonkeltron
hakunin: you have some funkystuff in your .emacs.d/init.el ?
hakunin
quotemstr: i'm using some bloated starter kit, but it seems that it would prevent these things rather than enable them
yonkeltron: so yeah ^
yonkeltron
starter kit?
hakunin
yonkeltron: if you heard about emacs video on peepcasts.com it suggests this to get started: http://github.com/technomancy/emacs-starter-kit
quotemstr
hakunin: I get by just customizing a base Emacs.
mns
hakunin: try it with emacs -q first. if you still get the debugger, try it with emacs -Q. that will help figure out whether it is your setup or the system setup.
quotemstr
IMHO, starter kits are overrated.
yonkeltron
imho, OF ALL TIME
i didn't know there were such things
hakunin
mns: gotcha
quotemstr
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_PowerMeter
Wow. Google really is trying to branch into every conceivable market.
hakunin
quotemstr: agreed, dislike starter kits, emacs is way too far from my normal understanding of editing features without it though, need some "assistance"
quotemstr
hakunin: Those modes are training wheels.
hakunin: Which particular behaviors do you need from
Emacs?
fsbot
I think Emacs is an extensible, customizable, self-documenting real-time display editor <http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/> .. + other entries
zkamm
hakunin: have you run through the tutorial
hakunin
quotemstr: completion, project root awareness, highlighting/syntax awareness, vcs support, basic more mac-catering bindings to name a few
zkamm: i followed that video
quotemstr
"As long as it has fuel, the Prius can produce at least three kilowatts of continuous power"
hakunin
i'm slightly better with videos
quotemstr
That's not bad at all!
cluck
quotemstr: yeah but how much fuel does it take for it to provide that amount of electricity for one hour?
zkamm
hakunin: I learned the basics by hitting C-h t and going through the built in tutorial
jlf
isn't 3 kW something like 4 HP?
hakunin
zkamm: i'll look that up too
zkamm: my issue is fault-intolerance currently
a feature of both vim and emacs
fault-intolerance means that it's easy to end up in "wtf just happened, where am i?" situation, and hard to return from it
tali713
that happens in any complex system you don't yet understand.
zkamm
that aounds more like vi{m} to me.
r4yner
hakunin: in emacs all you need to know is C-g
hakunin
tali713: well, when comes to simple test editors such as textmate, you can be very fuzzy about your actions, it won't suddenly throw you into debugger, or make stuck in between a command
tali713
but in emacs the answer is usually, hit C-g a few times and then hit C-h C-r and read the manual.
quotemstr
jlf: Yeah, but getting it into a wire instead of just turning the wheels is the neat part.
hakunin
r4yner: used it many times, works half the time in situations i encountered
quotemstr
hakunin: Emacs is designed to have that property as well.
tali713
exactly SIMPLE text editors.
quotemstr
hakunin: It's a non-modal editor, which when Emacs was first created, was a big deal.
cpt_nemo
quotemstr: That would be called a generator.
quotemstr
hakunin: I can't say anything about "start kits" and somesuch. Those aren't Emacs proper.
hakunin
understood
tali713
hakunin: pretty much every problem I have had with emacs was with an add on i chose to use or from accidentally tripping a mode i could easily escape out of.
zkamm
hakunin: just start using emacs to edit files and slowly learn to do things in emacs that you do in the shell, i.e git
jlf
cpt_nemo: s/generator/alternator/ for the last 30-35 years
hakunin
i compare that with learning piano, i see how people learn. they play very precisely very slow for a long time until they start playing very precisely very fast, with strong awareness of what they gonna press next. i didn't learn piano like that - i preferred to press randomly all kinds of sh*t. not sure if it's right for my fuzzy mentality, but time will tell.
cpt_nemo
hakunin: One way of getting into Emacs is to read the tutorial and then start using it for some well-defined but useful task.
A colleague of mine uses it only for org-mode.
(which isn't simple).
hakunin
cpt_nemo: yes, will do
cpt_nemo: i'm trying to use it primarily though
tali713
hakunin: well as long as you remember C-g you can do that, but the manual has some funny bits in it, and you may want to learn about the many many help modes, C-h C-h is a good place to start
hakunin
yes know about help modes
zkamm
also, avoid vim as much as possible, it can only skew/corrupt your thoughts
jlf
,vimtutorial
fsbot
vimtutorial is :wq!
quotemstr
Hrm.
zkamm
,vi
fsbot
vi is, like, [0] a visual editor (see ,viper ,vim ,nvi)
[1] "visual" meaning not a line editor like ed
quotemstr
Fuel consumption is only 0.6 gallons per hour.
That's not too shabby either, especially by home generator standards.
hakunin
tali713: a little disoriented as far as what is binding what is function, what is ... "anything"... but i'm fine
zkamm
,vimquit
fsbot
Many changes of mind and mood; do not hesitate too long.
hakunin
zkamm: couldn't get used to it after trying hard
tali713
well so to avoid issuing random nonsense commands split your frame and keep the C-h m page for the mode you are using in one of them.
mns
hakunin: C-h m will tell you what is bound to what for the mode you are in.
r4yner
hakunin: i spent about two weeks being infuriated until i learned the vim keybindings
hakunin
mns: that's very useful
zkamm
my usual way of dealing with vim is C-z C-c
tali713
then C-h k and C-h f give you.
r4yner
hakunin: imo, it's worth it. if you're ever curious you can find much frowned-upon vi/vim-style editing modes for emacs
tali713
zkamm: that's about right, then change EDITOR=emacsclient?
hakunin
r4yner: keybindings are not a problem mainly, it's creating chains of commands, wtih objects, actions, movements, which is catering to very determined, "knowing ahead exactly what you gonna do" thinking, and autonomous brain-imprinted mode-switching
tali713
yeah, that takes a moment, but it's really nice once you can move and manipulate text with little more than a thought.
anxt
i hate when people change EDITOR= sh*t
r4yner
hakunin: i guess i should say i was infuriated by not being able to do things smoothly then
mns
tali713: emacs has a mode for that! :)
anxt
vipw is vipw not emacspw
zkamm
tali713: that's what I have it set to now, but there have been a couple times during installs when I needed to edit things an the install program just kicked me into vi
anxt
i love emacs, but vipw is VI
zkamm
,vipw
fsbot
Yow! I want to mail a bronzed artichoke to Nicaragua!
tali713
M-x thought-control?
mns
yup
anxt
my employer loves to install bash as root shell, and change EDITOR to nano
mns
well that controls your thoughts. its emacsthought modeled after emacspeak :)
hakunin
lol
r4yner
hakunin: if you know vi workflow you will note some emacs people getting excited over emacs commands that are a few simple keystrokes in vi
mns
anxt: can't you fire your employer for such dumb decisions ?
anxt
mns: i could, but he pays me well :)
i am jsut a contractor
mns
lol
tali713
hakunin: right now i am using emacs to talk here.
sword
Wait, you have to work in nano?
(Action) shudders
zkamm
r4yner: how much customization can you get out of vim? As I understand it, the vanilla vi can only do one file, no multiple frames like emacs
anxt
i have an aversion to nano and bash, and even that finish kernel
screen or tmux
zkamm
anxt: why the aversion to bash?
anxt
why the hell would anyone start a shell and not use screen
hakunin
tali713: oh yeah i tried that, but got a bit creeped out when msg nickserv identify [password] showed up posted, wasn't sure if it was escaped or not
anxt
zkamm: i think it is by association :)
r4yner
zkamm: that's true, oldschool vi users tend to run a few vi processes and suspend the ones they're not using
zkamm: i use viper with vimpulse on emacs though. with a few tweaks i've made it mostly act like i was used to vim behaving
anxt
i editted a fstab on openbsd the other month using ed
ed is actually pretty easy
tali713
hakunin: well there are a couple of irc modes, but you always send our password plain text unless you use server authentication, even if a give ircc client hides it from you.
anxt
albeit ugly
zkamm
r4yner: the only plain vi user I've ever seen was a prof who was awe-inspiring to watch
anxt
i wanna figure out this ediff stuff
r4yner
zkamm: yeah, it was that awe that made me want to learn it, despite how painfnul it was
anxt
i used plain old berkley vi for years
its awesome for many uses, i am finding emacs a nice change though
tramp mode is insanely cool
tali713
anxt: yes it is.
jlf
berkeley
anxt
aparently i can launch a remote shell based on the remote file i am visiting
zkamm
I use emacs just because I don't have to leave it very often
anxt
i would like to figure out how to get emacs to conenct to my reverse ssh tunnels
r4yner
i am addicted to org mode
anxt
i am using org mode instead of daylite now
i have mobile ord on my phone but haven't tweaked it out yet
zkamm
I've never been able to grok org mode
anxt
org mode with gpg is my financial stuff
zkamm
I think it just doesn't fit my style of note-taking
anxt
zkamm: yeah that might be, i find it fits quite naturally for me
fsmunoz
zkamm: you keep a notes.txt file inside folders and stuff like that?
anxt
that whole gdb thing looks neato too
erc kinda sucks, but hell its better than xchat aqua
zkamm
fsmunoz: no, generally just keep them in my head. If I write them out at all, I use pen and paper because I can get the spatial aspect much better
anxt
i would like to find how to evaluate things into buffers like erc
tali713
i like erc quite a bit. what don't you like about it?
anxt
ie (emacs-version)C-x C-e
tali713
just like that
anxt
tali713: prolly jsut lack of familiarity, the scrolling is weird
tali713
do you want to insert at point too?
anxt
my emacs version is : (emacs-version)
fsmunoz
zkamm: right, that also is what works best for me. Org mode for me is like something that is supposedly brilliante but I just can't bring myself to use it.
anxt
bbdb is cool with wanderlust
tali713
hmmm (emacs-version)C-u C-x C-e ... (emacs-version)"GNU Emacs 23.1.1 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.18.6)
of 2010-01-27 on brahms, modified by Debian"
anxt
i think i started with emacs looking for a replacement for apple mail
cpt_nemo
anxt: That's an interesting step...
anxt
yeah i always do things wrong
in the wrong order
like smoking crack before i tried weed
tali713
how are you finding it, do you use gnus?
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