logs archiveIRC Archive / Freenode / #emacs / 2010 / February / 22 / 1
ankou
hi, when I choose the "clean" font the frame automatically shrinks at startup right after KDE maximized it so that it is not maximized, how can I change this beaviour?
greboides
ankou: there were others complaining about kde and emacs maximization, from elisp you can use ,,maxframe i think
fsbot
hmm, maxframe is [0] located at http://www.emacsblog.org/2007/02/22/maximize-on-startup-part-2/
[1] maximize emacs frames from elisp,
[2] alternatively you can get it from here: http://github.com/rmm5t/maxframe-el/tree/master
e1f
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaujolais_wine#Scandals
French wine critic Fran├žois Mauss claimed ... that Beaujolais producers had long ignored the warning signs that such a backlash was coming and continued to produce what Mauss termed vin de merde
Han
chateaux migraine
cluck
e1f: he's an ass but he's also right, most wine makers these days prefer producing sh*tty wine and mass market it at relatively low prices rather than making a quality product that is just a bit more expensive (and not just in france)
devinus
is there any advantage to using gtk emacs or cocoa emacs over just the console emacs?
damd
devinus: you can use bindings such as <C-tab>
devinus
i see
         

damd
also, more colors, viewing images, etc
offby1
devinus: dunno about OS X, but on *nix, the clipboard works better in the X version than in the console version
devinus
good to know.
sword
devinus: there's no reason you can't use both with --daemon
devinus: Pick whatever suits you more
devinus
no, its just taht i've heard a lot of people raving about using screen and emacs together
sword
devinus: I use it but that's because I'm too lazy to spawn new frames and that's how I had it set up before multi-tty
Inertia
It's nice remotely if you need that kind of thing, although there is no reason why you can't spawn a X11 frame over the tunnel
A little faster than remote X
But Org and paredit's keybindings are not functional over a tty
Anyway, naptime
newerspeak
I'm reviewing a set of notes in an org buffer. Is there an easy way to select and highlight sections of text?
offby1
remote X is _very_ slow
too slow to be usable, in my experience
bremner
NX is usable, if you ever get it working
offby1
I tried NX once ages ago on Windows; it s*** all over my Cygwin installation, and I have had no interest in try it again, ever.
fledermaus
offby1: "I tried <whatever> on cygwin and it broke" is hardly surprising
for a start, you were on cygwin
bremner
to be fair, the NX people really don't play nice with the other children
they included their own xlibs or some crazy thing
jkimball4
greetings. I'm having an issue with tramp where it seems to be able to do anything except open a remote file over ssh. Is there something I need to tweak with regard to the ssh server or something else that I'm forgetting?
It's only one host that has the issue afaict. that's why I ask if it could be a sshd config issue
e1f
vnc is preferrable to remote x
snogglethorpe
hmm, why?
jkimball4
(Action) quite likes remot X
e1f
it works much more smoothly
snogglethorpe
vnc always seemed like the dumbest idea ever...
e1f
less traffic
madnificent
freenx server is impressive
s/server//
         

e1f
i meant from a windows client
snogglethorpe
"he, let's SEND SCREEN BITMAPS over the wire!!!"
Oo
jkimball4
you look through the glass hoping to see your server?
snogglethorpe
of course they sweated blood to do sufficient compression to get it to work with a typical win95 app, but have you ever tried it with the gradient-heavy stuff in vista?! it _really sucks_ then...
e1f
only seen it used on xp
tEtra
I will second the greatness of FreeNX
madnificent
snogglethorpe: so, it fits vista perfectly :)
snogglethorpe
madnificent: heh
madnificent
bad humor
e1f
people who use vista deserve what they get
snogglethorpe
e1f: but it's not really vista, it's a basic problem with the entire concept of sending video as a way of doing remote access
of course the _real_ problem is the fact that people are so wedded to their gui that they can't simply use a more appropriate user-interaction method when it's appropriate
for instance, over a slowish net connection...
tEtra
true
snogglethorpe
but of course MS (and Apple) have been pushing the concept that "anything except a GUI is tooooooo harrrrrrrd)" mercilessly
tEtra
heh
e1f
also, i was assuming bandwith was not a constraint
snogglethorpe
e1f: it often is a constraint tho, even in a modern environment
tEtra
where do you live? :)
snogglethorpe
btw a lot the comments I'm making about this come from observing a MS dev trying to work remotely, with a reasonably fast (but not a LAN) net connection
madnificent
I can easily run apps like openoffice over the internet with X forwarding... they take a while to load, but the response time is quick. With FreeNX it's almost as if it were a local machine
tEtra
different topic: so, how would you approach dynamically font-locking function names, that have not been explicitly added?
cluck
correct me if i'm mistaken please but isn't freenx using bitmaps like vnc only with a better compression algorithm?
quotemstr
cluck: NO!
cluck: NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
Nein. Nyet. Na.
It proxies the X11 protocol itself, with some compression and round-trip elimination
That's why it's so fast.
cluck
ah
quotemstr
It's the same approach that RDP uses, except nx isn't a hack.
cluck
that makes sense
i happily stand corrected
that actually makes technical sense
too bad it's a bi**h to setup
quotemstr
It's easy compared to generating a Canadian Cross gcc setup.
e1f
canadian cross?
quotemstr
Compiling on machine A a compiler that runs on machine B that produces binaries for machine C.
fledermaus
aka "aboot"
quotemstr
A != B != C.
greboides
quotemstr: do you use byte-code-cache still?
cluck
i could use an app server that survives the crash of a wm or that could easily be run as a different user (imagine 'jailing' a webbrowser)
quotemstr
greboides: I use it personally, yes, but there are a couple packages I know it doesn't work for.
DrDuck
I'm under the linux OS now, so maybe it'll be easier for me to figure out how to make my programs run.
greboides
quotemstr: just calling it after these packages solve the issue?
quotemstr
greboides: Or byte-compiling those packages explicitly, yes.
greboides: Patches welcome of course. :-)
greboides
quotemstr: i will see what i can get, i liked the idea
quotemstr
greboides: Really, the issue is that I'm abusing the byte-compiler. It's not reentrant. It'd be better to run another emacs as a subprocess.
greboides
i see
quotemstr
Also, replacing LOAD with an elisp version doesn't help correctness. :)
It's really more a proof of concept -- doing it in the core would be much cleaner.
greboides
quotemstr: i agree that this should be a core thing
skeeziks
RE: the earlier converstaion, what is the current status of FreeNX? I haven't seen updates since 2008 on their page.
Is the code there still relevant and operational?
quotemstr
Still works.
Still around.
Google wrote a new set of wrapper scripts last year, IIRC.
skeeziks
So it's just download -> build -> use then?
quotemstr
I've always used packages.
That'll probably work too.
skeeziks
Should I be looking at Neatx?
(from here: http://code.google.com/p/neatx/)
quotemstr
I haven't used it myself, but you can give it a shot.
bremner
seems to be a live project (neatx)
although a whole 58 svn revisions doesn't inspire me
quotemstr
But each one has the strength of ten normal revisions!
It's Google. That are like undo Gods.
skeeziks
Heh
bremner
yeah, svn people tend make mega revisions ;)
I guess cuz each commit takes so damn long :)
e1f
http://www.nomachine.com/select-package.php?os=linux&id=1
there's rpms and debs
bremner
yes, yes. you and your closed source poisoned apples :)
e1f
did you know that apple actually makes the changes to the darwin kernel freely available eventhough it's bsd licensed
bremner
did you know that I used to maintain FreeBSD ports?
e1f
no
bremner
I did know yours :)
quotemstr
e1f: They'd have to publish most of that anyway for driver writers.
e1f
not sure that's true
quotemstr
And TBH, most of the changes in Darwin are not very interesting, and verge on the bizarre.
e1f
microsoft doesn't publish sources and there seem to be drivers for its software
quotemstr: how about the changes to gcc?
quotemstr
Also not particularly interesting.
e1f
for ppc anyway
quotemstr
I don't see a single thing dyld does that ELF doesn't do better.
(Except for fat binaries.)
e1f
it's ironic that the citizens of a free country like the us prefer closed os's when dictatorships like china prefer linux
free software tends to thrive in dictatorships
bremner
sigh. have we sunk to recycled slashdot trolls?
greboides
i wonder how free is us
CalJohn
imo, it's ironic, but not that surprising. the US favours large software companies in a few important ways that china does not
(well, maybe china would, but it doesn't have any)
e1f
bremner: are you disputing my claim
or perhaps observations
skeeziks
Change takes time. MS, Apple, etc. have been around for a long time and made important inroads before free software could match it.
Give it some time...
e1f
very true
quotemstr
Starting from scratch it easier.
e1f
on the otherhand, the android and the kindle run linux
skeeziks
Compare the Brazilian mobile phone system to the US's - it's supposedly much more advanced, and also much newer.
bremner
e1f: I'm dismissing the whole discussion actually.
CalJohn
skeeziks: but there are new areas that arise where closed source stuff steals the entire market instantly
e1f
so it soon become mainstream
but i don't think google advertises that it's running linux
skeeziks
CalJohn: Do mean with or without an equivalent in the free software world?
e1f
yeah, i guess ms and apple are ahead because of legacy
CalJohn
i'm not sure what you mean by that. to clarify what I mean: I mean that there are some new subfields which have opened up that prop software can completely dominated
e1f
and as google and amazon have proven, dotcoms start with linux
dotsoms=2001
dotcoms
CalJohn
free software seem to either come from academia, and lead the field, or come from grassroots and duplicate. when university academia doesn't invent something, a lot of the time, FOSS never gets into the market
skeeziks
CalJohn: I would say that's true. I would guess that, in general, a free software alternative evenvually comes along in most fields of any size and commoditizes the stuff.
CalJohn
yes, FOSS does seem to smash areas where the "product" is well understood
quotemstr
Each software subfield goes through a progression. It first begins with proprietary software. Multiple companies compete with each other until all the competitive advantage is wrung out of the system. At that point, either these companies or their users realize cooperation is more efficient and start writing free software together.
Compilers have reached that point, as have OS kernels.
CalJohn
quotemstr: no, lots of fields start with FOSS and only ever use FOSS
quotemstr
CalJohn: Like what?
e1f
i assume ebay runs on linux too?
CalJohn
well, for example, functional programming (I mean ML, not lisp) has never ever had a non-FOSS component
skeeziks
Don't forget F#! :)
CalJohn
conversely, Robotics is very non-FOSS
F# is FOSS though, I thought?
skeeziks
Perhaps it is, I was trolling :)
CalJohn
and it doesn't look like Robotics will ever go very FOSS
so, clearly the lifecycle hypothesis of prop software -> FOSS is not true for a lot of cases
skeeziks
(Action) is curious about FOSS in development of things like FPGAs and such. I work for an optical networking company and they use LOTS of proprietary software for design.
quotemstr
CalJohn: Sure, there are exceptions. But it seems like it is the process many fields do undergo.
CalJohn
there are so many exceptions that i don't think it is a rule, quotemstr
e1f
yeah, we use quartus which is proprietary
skeeziks
e1f: Same here
And a few others (can't remember ATM).
greboides
but quartus use a gnu toolchain to build i thik
e1f
that's because industry uses quartus
skeeziks
There are a few others we use along with it, probably for ancillary activities.
e1f
which is why it'sa available for linux
i didn't know that
that it used a gnu toolchain
skeeziks
My guess is that will be the case for a while, since I expect hardware comes out and is immediately supported by Quartus.
e1f
it was also available for solaris
skeeziks
We use it on Linux quite a bit, moved from Windows a couple of years ago.
twb
What hardware is this?
e1f
fpga
we have found that quartus for linux is poorly written when it comes to releasing shared memory that the program has allocated
skeeziks
e1f: How does this manifest itself in your environment? I'll keep an eye out.
e1f
in our labs it causes lots of problems when students log out at the end of class and annother group logs in
but if it's a single dev per workstation it's fine
skeeziks
Oh I see. Our users have the own desktops where they run it (no complaints yet) and we also run it on a set of Sun Grid Engine systems.
twb
e1f: that's nuts. If the program actually exits, how can it keep memory open?
Surely the kernel says "oho, you are gone, I will reap your heap"
skeeziks
Man, "Reap your Heap" sounds like a terrible Pop song.
e1f
i dunno, but the kernel doesn't free it
damd
let my modules go
Eraldo
Greetings! My girlfriend uses aquamacs emacs and I tried to make remmeber-mode work on her mac aswell but I got an error: "Autoloding failed to define function org-remember-insinuate"
twb
Eraldo: we don't provide support for aquamacs.
Eraldo
okay thank you anyway :)
twb
Eraldo: try reproducing the error in GNU Emacs
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