logs archiveIRC Archive / Freenode / #emacs / 2010 / February / 16 / 1
rgr
bet it was a xmodmap change for xmonad.
dim
awesome is.
abbe
CalJohn: you probably have forgotten to use 'kbd' ;)
stepnem
,flame 0 marioxcc
fsbot
0 marioxcc: you nincompoop!
CalJohn
abbe: perhaps I had, but I have just updated to a version of haskell-mode that is not two years out of date
and it *justworks* now
abbe
CalJohn: oh, cool :)
CalJohn
:)
shabble
any ideas on how to make M-x compile find my up-lots-of-dirs build.xml for ant?
         

technomancy
,df locate-dominating-file
fsbot
locate-dominating-file is a compiled Lisp function in `files.el'.
(locate-dominating-file FILE NAME)
Look up the directory hierarchy from FILE for a file named NAME.
Stop at the first parent directory containing a file NAME,
and return the directory. Return nil if not found.
technomancy
shabble: ^^ available on Emacs 23 and onwards
shabble
nifty, let's see if I've got it
quotemstr
Not a bad Irish ale.
(Action) loves Great Lakes Brewing Co.
shabble
technomancy: sweet, that seems to work: http://pastie.org/826308
technomancy
groovy
apart from the usage of ant, of course
shabble
I've found it pretty unavoidable for java :/
e1f
"The backlash over Google Buzz reveals an even bigger problem: The people behind the people's search engine are deeply out of touch."
bremner
not like Apple
e1f
how is apple out of touch
fledermaus
exhibit one: the ipad
hylje
they don't market to the price conscious
e1f
hylje
but we dont want touch we want digital copywriters
e1f
"Her point is that Google is becoming increasingly insular. It's like the world ends at the edge of the Googleplex, and beyond that ... there be monsters. Just like folks on the Redmond campus started to be like back in the early '90s.Her point is that Google is becoming increasingly insular. It's like the world ends at the edge of the Googleplex, and beyond that ... there be monsters. Just like folks on the Redmond campus started to be
like back in the early '90s."
damd
come again?
fledermaus
it's a white hole.
quotemstr
Barbarians at the Gates? :-)
Sorry, couldn't resist.
mfisher
quotemstr: yeah, that Great Lakes Irish Ale was pretty decent this year
         

Boney
fledermaus: a white hole?
:-)
fledermaus
I've never seen one before, no one has...
karme
it is just time for a open distributed search engine
maybe something in that direction: http://yacy.net/
boscop
when I'm running gdb in emacs on windows, I get: The target does not support running in non-stop mode.
why can't I run, step, etc?
I compiled with -ggdb
GayFeminist
Guten tag, Herr Stallmen.
bpalmer
karme: what would open mean in that context?
karme
bpalmer: ~s/open/free
bpalmer
karme: what would free mean in that context?
karme
bpalmer: free software implementations around open protocols
bpalmer
like ... http?
wikia tried a "crowdsourcing" search engine, but I thought then and now it was a silly concept
karme
bpalmer: yes
bpalmer: it is needed
bpalmer: and yes, there are many problems
GayFeminist
Spammers would love it.
bpalmer
exactly. capture by special interests of all sorts.
karme
GayFeminist: we could sign search results and build a network of trust
in the end, everything is better than a single company delivering the search results to the world, no?
GayFeminist
Just wait until Bing takes over the world.
shabble
Rrrrrr. Quit closing my split windows emacs!
karme
(or not delivering)
bpalmer
there are many search engines; and whether they're open, free, closed, or what-have-you doesn't seem so important; they're services.
I don't worry overly much about whether there's a "free" fast food restaurant delivering food across the country
karme
bpalmer: free services are just services, too
bpalmer: if it is ok for you to trust google, fine
bpalmer
karme: "free" doesn't seem relevant to the trust issue.
(I keep quoting "free" because I believe the concept is not well-defined here)
GayFeminist
Damn it, Richard Stallmen is on the plane with me and he won't stop trying to make out with the personal injury lawyer.
bpalmer
at any rate. There are metasearch engines that spread searches across google, bing, yahoo, altavista, etc.
damd
GayFeminist: he has sex drive?
GayFeminist
No, he's trying to lap the other guy's feet.
karme
bpalmer: you can also "choose" between burger king and mac donalds
bpalmer
GayFeminist: sounds like it's a private issue for you all.
karme
bpalmer: i try to come up with a better explanation
bpalmer: but don't count on it ;-)
bpalmer
karme: heh.
johnsu01
bpalmer: but services can have practices that make you trust them more, surely, and to me releasing the server code (obviously not verifiably exactly the same, but verifiably very similar) as free software so that others can run their own servers, is one of those practices
karme
(Action) testing yacy
bpalmer
How can you verify that it's very similar?
GayFeminist
Eww Richard, stop eating his armpit hair.
johnsu01
bpalmer: by how it reacts to the input
bpalmer: but yes, I agree that it's a black box in the end -- it could all be a facade
but in practice that's not really true
you could tell google was using gnu units for example, because it had the same bugs
bpalmer
In theory, you could verify it if the servers all implemented "Trusted Computing" protocols, mind you...
e1f
you mean there's a bunch of pigeons in a black box somewhere?
CEOThatsGay
Evasion is debonair. :)
shabble
bpalmer: nothing a high-powered microscope and bit of hydrofluoric acid can't crack :)
bpalmer
so much of a service is about configuration and maintenance, though, that simply having source doesn't seem sufficient
karme
bpalmer: what i have in mind is some voting mechanism
Quad
http://www.sexyemilie.com/?id=2049953
karme
bpalmer: search results are signed
e1f
how do you stop the spammers botnet from voting?
karme
bpalmer: if they are bad i say: this engine delivered bad results and sign this again
bpalmer: if people think i am trust-worthy they say: he delivers good results and sign it
bpalmer: => network of trust
shabble
e1f: captcha? :) or some sort of web-of-trust type thing
bpalmer
if you have a neural net algorithm but don't have access to its training data, is it a "free" service?
rather, is a service that uses the algorithm/code "free" ?
e1f
shabble: no, i meant rigging the votes
bpalmer
karme: every search engine inevitably delivers bad results. You're then just vulnerable to people poisoning the well.
shabble
e1f: presumably clients only count votes from people they trust
bpalmer
so how do you start trusting people?
shabble
social networks?
e1f
you have to download their voting client and install it
which cryptosigns the votes
bpalmer
If my social network knew the stuff I was searching for, I probably wouldn't be searching for it
(ok, not entirely true, but close enough)
e1f
so instead of having one bing engine why not have small specialised engines
like each member of your social network who is a spealist in a particular subject
bpalmer
there are. For example, hoogle does haskell related searches
oh, big, not bing
I know a lot of specialists in farmville and mafia wars
e1f
yeah, i meant big
shabble
it's a bit hazy in my head, but I think the general idea is:
people assign a trust value to various other people (maybe people they know, people with a popular blog, whatever); all those people are voting on good/bad results; when you search for something, the rankings are generated as a function of the votes by peopel you trust.
e1f
the problem with that is that monks don't have a big social network
but they know a lot of good stuff
shabble
monks?
e1f
so you are eliminating a valuable demographic
yes, the opposite of social butterflies
bpalmer
shabble: well, I think that's what wikia search tried to do; I don't remember how good it was.
Not good enough to get me to shift from google, certainly.
(and there's a similar framework from google: http://www.google.com/support/websearch/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=115764 )
shabble
bpalmer: sounds like the network effect; you need scale in order for it to be good, and you need it to be good before you'll generate hte scale :/
bpalmer
aye. the traditional mode to get around that is to bleed money for a while, subsidizing the building of scale.
shabble
well, you could seed it with 'trusted authorities', who crawl/mech-turk up the initial rankings
but people would be free to stop using those authorities once the system is large enough
bpalmer
how easy should it be for others to inspect authority Alice's social network?
to validate for signs of nefariousness.
e1f
i think knol has approached that from the opposite direction, as has the wikipedia
you seed the search engine with authoritative articles on all subkjects
the trust is implicit
i sometimes don't even bother searching google and go directly to the wikipedia depending on the subject
bpalmer
not knol?
e1f
not enough breadth
not many knol articles appear on the first google search page
at least for the stuff i search for
i only remember seeing one knol article in the last year
it was pretty goood
karme
yacy is quite cool
fro0g
karme: I like the idea, but it's been a bit slow the times I've tried it
karme
speed is ok for me at the moment - but the w3m experience could be improved :-)
rgr
Madness. The auto-complete author is now writing all his own completion functions for various languages and ignoring cedet completion candidates.
technomancy
(Action) ignores cedet all the time
every day, in fact
quotemstr
rgr: *The* auto-complete author?
rgr
I can only speak to the one who is maintaining it.
Talk about pulling in differnet directions.
quotemstr
Which author?
rgr
huh?
quotemstr
Who is the person we're talking about?
rgr
I already said.
The auto-complete author/maintainer.
quotemstr
"auto-complete" isn't a package.
Do you mean dabbrev?
company-mode?
fsbot
company-mode -- http://nschum.de/src/emacs/company-mode/ .. + other entries
quotemstr
hippy-expand?
rgr
No. I mean auto-complete.
Not company-mode. Not hippie. auto-complete. The package.
quotemstr
Oh.
One of *those*.
"Plays well with others: D+"
JordiGH
This is so awesome. I'm watching freedom at work.
rgr
quotemstr
JordiGH: What is that?
JordiGH
I'm really happy I cc'ed rms in our mailing list.
rgr
oh jesus. Not more of his twaddle. See you later.
JordiGH
quotemstr: The Mathworks intimidated a lot of people to relicense their work under the BSD with no other license option. In addition, they changed their ToS to say that the software that people wrote and host on the Mathworks' site can only be used on Mathworks software.
quotemstr: rms might consult the lawyers. :D
quotemstr
JordiGH: Doesn't that... directly contradict the BSD license?
JordiGH
Also, people are mobilising. There's talk of creating another website to host free software that runs on the Matlab language, people are gonna send letters to those who were intimidated into changing the license terms away from copyleft...
CEASE THIS AFFRONT TO FREEDOM
fro0g
are they feeling the heat from octave?
JordiGH
fro0g: Probably.
quotemstr
The BSD relicensing bit doesn't sound illegal per se, though it is rotten.
But the TOS bit seems indefensible to me.
JordiGH
quotemstr: No, it's not illegal. They just said, "BSD, or get out of our website".
e1f
really? octave is catching up to matlab?
JordiGH
quotemstr: a lot of the code was orphaned. It was probably just removed.
quotemstr
(Action) just uses GNU calc.
I've never needed anything more in a CAS, honestly.
e1f
we pay a really expensive annual cost for a matlab site license
isomer
is there somewhere to download a current HEAD snapshot (source) without having to get an entire repository of history?
JordiGH
e1f: On technical terms, Octave is a good competitor. People are still not happy to be dumped into a CLI when they load Octave, though.
e1f
ok
i don't think the students here could cope with a cli
JordiGH
e1f: There are GUIs, but they're not great yet.
e1f: I really don't think it should matter. The "GUI" in Matlab is just a glorified terminal.
e1f
simulink isn't
JordiGH
e1f: But there is QtOctave and OctaveDE...
Yeah, simulink still has no competition.
quotemstr
How the hell can someone's brain be built powerfully enough to understand advanced algebra without also allowing that person to understand a CLI?
Simulink does look interesting though.
e1f
quotemstr: are you speaking of the faculty or the students ;)
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