logs archiveIRC Archive / Freenode / #emacs / 2010 / February / 10 / 1
Ober2
,,slashdot.el
fsbot
[google] http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs-zh/%25E5%2588%2586%25E9%25A1%259E%25EF%25BC%258D%25E4%25BB%258B%25E9%259D%25A2
http://www.emacswiki.org/pics/static/ell.html
Ober2
,slashdot.el
fsbot
[google] http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs-zh/%25E5%2588%2586%25E9%25A1%259E%25EF%25BC%258D%25E4%25BB%258B%25E9%259D%25A2
http://www.emacswiki.org/pics/static/ell.html
quotemstr_
It works!
It works! It works!
(Action) dances.
mns
what works ? lol
dwwe
It
quotemstr_
The garbage collector.
mns
cool
         

dwwe
quotemstr_: You have a robot that collects your garbage ;) cool
quotemstr_
No, I haven't lived at home in many years. :-)
dim
hehe
quotemstr_: clock sweep something?
jlf
,phases
fsbot
phases is, like, the six phases of a project: 1. enthusiasm; 2. disillusionment; 3. panic; 4. search for the guilty; 5. punishment of the innocent; 6. praise and honors for the non-participants.
quotemstr_
dim: An adaption of DF Bacon's cycle collector.
dim: (His original paper was slightly wrong, which is why it took so long.)
dim
ok, now I have some more reading to do :)
last time I read about a GC was to try understanding the Erlang's one
quotemstr_
Pure mark-and-sweep really isn't compatible with C++, but this is reference counting on steroids: it correctly handles cycles, is generational, and gets within 5% of normal GC algorithms.
That's not too shabby.
dim
so you're out to implement a "real" system, usable in production?
quotemstr_
Yes.
dim
or it's still an excuse to play?
hehe nice
self-hosted?
quotemstr_
Why can't it be both? :-)
dim
like the C++ kernel will be as small as possible?
well you'll soon talk about JIT and production+research will get harder :)
quotemstr_
We were previously using straight-up reference counting, but when you add in a lisp with closures, you're forced to consider cycles.
Heh, no JIT quite yet.
(Though I have given some thought to the idea of a "dumb" conversion from lisp bytecode to x86 instructions.)
dim
well from reading "Coders at Work" it seems the Squeak JIT is a pretty good one
dunno if using LLVM would get you there
LLVM is C++ so...
quotemstr_
I'm not going to distribute a binary that includes a full copy of LLVM. :-)
dim
JIT might worth it?
quotemstr_
No.
hylje
jit always worth it!!
it's, like, a buzz word
quotemstr_
Size > performance.
An inefficient program with a high i-cache hit rate will beat the pants off one that has to fetch its bloated, obese codebase from RAM or disk.
Besides: anything really performance-critical gets implemented in C++. Lisp is glue.
         

dim
will you compare your work with bigloo?
,g bigloo
fsbot
[google] http://www.biglooradio.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigloo
underdev
ive installed slime from elpa, but slime isn't an option when i M-x from *scratch*
it is there, and i can get to it through a really circuitous route
is this normal?
emacs normal?
quotemstr_
dim: No, I'll be comparing it to TinyScheme.
hylje
emacs is not normal
quotemstr_
dim: (So far, this thing comes in at half the size of TinyScheme.)
hylje
you must be thinking of vim ;-)
quotemstr_
underdev: Just a hunch, but try M-x load-library RET slime RET
dim: Besides: if I want high-performance Lisp, I'll use SBCL.
dim
hehe
quotemstr_
dim: It beats the pants off most free compilers for any language.
dim: And if *that* isn't good enough, I've heard the commercial Allegro CL compiler is godly.
dim
Bigloo looks nice, I don't know about TinyScheme, will have a look given some time
underdev
quotemstr_: w00t!
that's it
technomancy
underdev: you should never need to do that manually; must be something messed up with your elpa install
underdev
so something else was loading the library
quotemstr_
technomancy: What does ELPA do with autolaods?
underdev
technomancy: lol, yeah, probably- trying to use it for clojure
technomancy
quotemstr_: it should handle them
underdev
assuming you are _that_ technomancy
technomancy
underdev: yups
quotemstr_: never seen it ignore them before
dim
hey tinyscheme is made for embedding, nice
I have to know about it now
jlf
there's also ecl
quotemstr_
dim: My main problem with TinyScheme (and with Lua) is that they both use GC systems that aren't integrated into that of the rest of the program.
dim
quotemstr_: how does it compare to guile or plt?
quotemstr_
dim: They also don't play well with C++ exceptions.
In my case, C++ exceptions *ARE* Lisp conditions.
dim
I want to convince the awesome maintainer to switch from lua to some lisp/scheme
and I have a C++ project @work using in-house extension language. awful.
like strcmp() and function pointers, and a language for dummies
quotemstr_
What do you mean?
dim
think basic with a worse syntax and only strings and no arrays nor loops, I think
and a terrible implementation, the one of parsing-101 example of what to NOT ever do
using guile there would be something great
Modius
How can I tell Emacs to reload a buffer from the disk file?
dim
M-x revert-buffer
which is C-c r here
mns
damn you're fast dim
dim
the question embeds the answer :)
quotemstr_
dim: Bah. If you're going to go through the trouble of using an extension language, it might as well be a *good* one.
dim: If executive size isn't an issue, I highly recommend Javascript: specifically, recent versions of SpiderMonkey.
dim
some people do C-x C-v RET too, Modius
quotemstr_
dim: It even has a JIT these days.
dim
javascript ain't a bad idea you know
would be easier to have the PHP devels accept it
quotemstr_
Javascript isn't a bad language, really.
dim
will see about that
quotemstr_
Not at all.
Of course, I'm biased. :-)
Modius
Thanks - 2 good techniques
dim
yeah, agreed, its implementation in different browser used to stink, tho
but I've read plenty of times that js is nice a language
makes sense as an extension language too I guess, lot of
mns
it is a good extension language. we used it as such at my last place. only problem was that they were using their own limited implementation of it.
quotemstr_
In my old life, at a printing company, we used a variable-data printing package that used embedded Javascript for document layout and data munging.
ngirard
Hello folks. I'm missing session management with my current configuration. I've been browsing http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/SessionManagement but i can't make my mind. Which session manager (sm) are you using, session.el or desktop.el ? What are the main differences between them ?
mns
you couldn't do // comments at one point.
dim
ngirard: I use desktop-save-mode and it's fine for me
I just (setq desktop-restore-eager 20)
ngirard
Hi and thanks dim
quotemstr_
ngirard: I just use savehist.
dim
I use savehist too :)
quotemstr_
Saving history is enough for me, honestly.
Actually, though I do need to look into a package for saving editing locations within each file.
ngirard
Hi quotemstr_ . well, okay
quotemstr_
Any suggestions?
ngirard
according to http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/SessionManagement, desktop seems to do it
quotemstr_
Ah, that's what it was called.
dim
yes it does
quotemstr_
http://www.printable.com/FusionProDesktop/
ngirard
along with session.el
quotemstr_
dim: If Javascript is good enough for these people, it's good enough for you.
dim
hehe
I'm too used to EmacsLisp as an embeded extension language
quotemstr_
Elisp is a sh*tty language.
Well, by Lisp standards.
It doesn't even have closures.
dim
yeah, hence looking at some Schemes
guile, bigloo, scheme48, plt-scheme, TinyScheme, you name it
now, JavaScript will certainly fits better
quotemstr_
I hear Guile has improved quite a bit lately.
ams
dim: you forgot half a dozen!
dim
easily, ams, I'm sure
ams
quotemstr_: wingo has done lots of nie wrk.
dim
ELK, pyguile, schempy, etc
technomancy
bus scheme is certainly the best
...scheme that is implemented while riding the bus
ams
dim: youdidn't even mention the 1000 schemes that the GNU project has
dim
ahah, I'm not wedded to GNU project, I'd prefer a BSD licenced one
underdev
this is my ham-handed and failed attempt to autoload swank-
rdev(+i)] [8:fn/#emacs(+n)] [Act: 2,3,5,6]
[#emacs]
ams
dim: like ... GNU MIT scheme?
underdev
oops
quotemstr_
The chief advantage of BSD code over LGPLed code is that we can statically link the BSD code without providing object files.
underdev
(autoload 'swank "swank" "swank" t)
dim
ams: ok you're pushing me toward JS now
damd
SWANKING FUCK YEAH
quotemstr_
ams: I forget -- does the LGPLv3 still allow supplying object files to link with LGPLed libraries?
ams
YES!
quotemstr_: ?
quotemstr_
ams: To distribute software under a proprietary license that uses an LGPLed library, according to the FSF, that software must either dynamically link to the LGPLed library, or the distributor must include object files that allow the end user to link to a different version of the LGPLed library.
ams
quotemstr_: according to the _license_ you mean
quotemstr_
ams: According to the interpretation of the license, yes. :-)
ams
quotemstr_: uhm, no, it is explicit in the license.
underdev
lol, that doesn't say slime does it
durrr
dim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ECMAScript_engines
ams
quotemstr_: LGPLv3 has similar provisions.
quotemstr_
Ah, yes. I just found them.
ams
quotemstr_: the point of them is that ne shuld still be able to modify the free parts.
quotemstr_
ams: Which is fair. Do you think it'd be okay to statically link a library, but provide facility to override the statically-linked version with a different version at runtime?
ams
quotemstr_: what would be fair is to make the program in question free software
quotemstr_
ams: It's a hypothetical.
underdev
technomancy: in my possibly broken emacs, i only see swank-clojure-project by default. I've found swank-clojure-autoload.el
ams
quotemstr_: so: make the program GPL, and reliense the library under the GPL.
underdev
but i don't seem to pick it up on start by default
Dwarik
can i make a 'regular' gtk program in elisp or can elisp only work inside an emacs buffer?
Diverdude
In my .emacs file I have: (color-theme-matrix) but emacs seem to ignore this and just use the default theme. Am I missing something?
kodein
first of all, have you read the messages buffer to see if it outputs any error messages there?
technomancy
underdev: something must be preventing elpa from activating the slime packages
underdev: if you launch M-x swank-clojure-project, does it work?
underdev
well, sort of yes
after i do that, then i can launch slime
technomancy
ok, so the packages work; they just don't have their autoloads set up
is there a ~/.emacs.d/elpa/slime-[...]/slime-autoloads.el file?
underdev
technomancy: yes
technomancy
underdev: can you eval it after a fresh launch of Emacs? any errors?
Diverdude
kodein, yes, i have not been able to locate any
underdev
i have no visible errors
if i "M-x slime" i get [No Match]
technomancy
underdev: can you paste the file?
looks like it wasn't generated correctly
underdev
slime-autoloads.el?
technomancy
yeah
kodein
Diverdude: if you eval it after emacs is started, then? does it work then?
underdev
one sec
Diverdude
kodein, eval it? you mean M-x load-file RET ~/.emacs ?
damd
where can i get a hold of unrar-free?
underdev
http://gist.github.com/299822
kodein
Diverdude: no, more like M-: (color-theme-matrix)
Diverdude
kodein, yes that works
kodein
odd.
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