logs archiveIRC Archive / Freenode / #emacs / 2010 / January / 6 / 1
ams
what is a good library for common lisp to output images?
johnw
i would ask in #lisp
ams
i'm asking here.
johnw
well, good luck then
ams
(emacs lispers have better taste wrt code than common lisp people)
johnw
(but they have knowledge of CL libraries)
ams
yes, and i asked for a `good' library,not just a library.
00:02 /ignore johnw
johnw
is that a threat to ignore me? or proof that you did? hmm
damd
johnw: i think it's "proof"... i don't see the point of it though.
         

johnw
yeah, can't see that I was being that inflammatory
prefrontal_
why do commands such as 'ls' in eshell take eons to complete?
johnw
prefrontal_: what OS are you on?
prefrontal_
ubuntu
johnw
try this: M-: (directory-files ".") RET
from the directory that's slow
see if it comes back quickly or not
prefrontal_
M-x eshell: `time ls' - 10.432 seconds. M-x shell: `time ls' - 1.858 seconds
ams
prefrontal_: eshell/ls is written in elisp.
johnw
that's quite an egregious slowdown
but it's being in lisp shouldn't have that big an impact
how many files are we talking?
I wonder if Emacs is gc'ing
prefrontal_
~6000
johnw
i think it's the slowness of memory consumption in elisp then
that's a lot of files to format and fontify
note that in eshell, you can always type "*ls"
prefrontal_
oh, that's fast. what is that?
johnw
*ls = use system ls
prefrontal_
ah-hah!
that's just fine then
this is not emacs related, but why do you suppose that `/usr/bin/time ls' returns in .02 seconds, and `time ls' returns in ~3 seconds? is that really bash overhead?
ams
prefrontal_: in what? eshell?
prefrontal_: and there is no such thing as `bash overhead'
prefrontal_
well i believe bash implements the time command
ams
all that happens on RET is a fork/exec, and some variable expansion.
prefrontal_: maybe, maybe not.
it might be a builtin,it might not.
if it is, then there is no fork/exec involved, and thus is faster.
similar with echo.
which does exist in /bin/echo, but you use the builtin in almost all cases.
(i generally disable bash builtins, since the real commands are more featureful)
and then there is the issue of cache...
multiple instances of `time ls' will show different values, first one being the largest, and subsequent (if executed sequentiually) smaller...
prefrontal_
ok, thanks for the tips guys
ams
and i suspect something is fubar with your system.
i've got well over 10k files in my ~/
and ls does not take 3 seconds.
rbancroft
you do? thats horrible
ams
not really...
i think 80 are non-backup files.
all other files are backup files from emacs.
         

prefrontal_
well i now suppose that the issue is nfs. one command reseeks the directory listing, another uses nfs cache
rbancroft
I have 70 files in my home dir and that seems like a lot to me
ams
prefrontal_: ah, there you go.
rbancroft
oh, backup files? I put those in a hidden sub directory
prefrontal_
i have 437. i periodically cycle ~ into ~/misc, which could crash my system if I counted the number of files..;-)
ams
i don't bother.
prefrontal_: *wink*
lets make a bet...
kodein
420 in ~, ls takes no time at all. meh.
ams
how many files, recursivley, do you have in ~/
?
i.e. what is the output of
find ~ -type f | wc -l
prefrontal_
many. just the sources of KDE and Webkit will put me into the hundreds of thousands if not millions.
ams
do a time onit,forfun =)
prefrontal_: love, i'll still beat you.
KDE is tiny
didi
55352
ams
mine is still running.
(Action) goes and grabs a glass of water.
didi
That's a lot of files.
ams
(Action) loves svn and darcs repositories.
8334828
kodein
346524
which is significantly less indeed :)
benny
8334829
ams
benny: tss..
kodein
but at least I beat didi
didi
Damn.
rbancroft
l
oops. yes subversion creates a lot of files
ams
10k file project, then 20k files for svn..
ditto for darcs
didi
for 10**10000 $ touch whatever
ams
i think that it is the same for hg...
prefrontal_
ok i started a wc -l on the listing of recent tarball of my home dir. it is 38gb..not sure how long that will take
ams
no clue.
kodein
well, if you knew, you'd be pretty close to solving P=NP, I guess
ams
kodein: significantly less than my tree i think :-)
didi
Nah. But you would build the watchdog killer.
rbancroft
thats true, mercurial also creates a file per file
ams
find that utterly stupid, they should use a saner backend.
rbancroft
but, mercurial doesn't pollute your entire source tree with .svn directories
ams
do i really care about those? no.
i'd rather use CVS anyway over svn.
or mercurial.
or darcs
cluck
i wonder how long will it take linus to realize versioning is needed and should be done at file system level and turn git into a (v)fs module
ams
the same day you send a patch?
cluck
not my lazy ass, not in your lifetime at least
ams
owuldn't be suprised if some nutcase already wrote such a thing
http://www.sfgoth.com/~mitch/linux/gitfs/
though seriously, do we need it as a file system? no.
better ways to access files, faster, sure... but embedding git into a fs, stupid.
araujo
we should rewrite git in Shakespeare
cluck
ams: do we need an OS to use a computer? NO! but it damn is handy when we do have one doing all the boring stuff for us
ams
problem with git as a fs, is that an fs contains mostly binary data... not text.
cluck: uhm, yeah we do need an OS to use a computer.
prefrontal_
from the git manual: "Linus Torvalds originally designed git to be a user space file system, i.e. the infrastructure to hold files and directories. That ensured the efficiency and speed of git. "
ams
cluck: you need to have a SYSTEM to OPERATE a computer.
now, what constitutes an OS, that is up for debate.
it could be using flip switches and a bunch of leds to program the damn thing...
(been there, done that)
or it could be in the form of GNU or BSD...
didi
Cosmic rays. It is always cosmic rays.
ams
there is always M-x butterfly
cluck
that's the whole point in making software, write stuff once to save some work later (well, i know that sounds ridiculous but that's the theory anyway)
ams
i thought it was to solve problems.
didi
(Action) needs to rethink the software he had been writing
GSaldana
is there a way to make your own animations m-x butterfly style?
ams
GSaldana: use the source.
GSaldana
i use computers to solve problems... emacs to save time ;)
cluck
ams: no, you need a program running that performs the tasks you need, you don't necessarily need an OS managing stuff for you (heck, not long ago my spectrum worked like that most of the time)
shabble
what problem does buttefly slove?: p
ams
cluck: then the program is the OS.
shabble
also, C-h f antimate-string RET
GSaldana
shabble: the problem of me wanting to show-off emacs to my co-workers
shabble
I use M-x tetris for that :)
ams
shabble: a very important one.
GSaldana
of course, its not the best thing to show-off, but people want eye-candy stuff
ams
use the source.
now, a xz file system would be cute...
xz is fu*king slow at compression, but fast at decompression
cluck
ams: don't play with semantics when you know better than that, please. next you'll be saying all firmware is an OS without caring about form or function.
ams
cluck: firmware is a type of OS, yes.
it controls a device.
cluck
arghhhhhh! i deserved that, i should've known better than to keep feeding you
ams
i love you too.
cluck
you're either unable to maintain a sane argument for long periods of time or you really hate losing one
ams
cluck: could i tbe that i am right, and you are just mad about it?
cluck
not this time, you'd need to be a hellova sweet talker to convince me that a demo/system software on its own/firmware is an OS (yes, there are fringe cases where they may overlap domains but that's hardly common)
ams
cluck: so i don't need to convince you, since you already agree.
goodie.
cluck
i never disagreed there were fringe cases, thus the explicit "(...) all firmware (...)", but SOME (particularly when a clear minority) does not mean ALL (or are you also going to have a go at subverting math and logic?)
ams
god you are easy to troll
it is almost enjoyable.
benny
and earlier he got offended that someone suggested many people have him on ignore :->
jlf`
,yow
fsbot
AIEEEEE! I am having an UNDULATING EXPERIENCE!
ams
benny: it is one thing if i call my self names, it is another if people are jerks and spread lies about someone.
benny
you had the same argument with the person saying this, but I doubt it's a lie
ams
01:04 /ignore benny
benny
he must feel silly that his clock is off by so much
damd
ams: at your rate you're probably just better off leaving this channel.
jlf`
benny: tragically ams' client doesn't implement /ignore properly so you can look forward to more from him soon
ams
01:05 /ignore damd
lalala
cluck
damn i'm good! i call the guy a troll and make himself admit it. i should put my persistent stubbornness at the service of world peace...
ams
cluck: you never called me a troll darling.
rbancroft
benny: hahahaha
damd
relevant in this discussion: http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk180/zeldera/Trolls.png
cluck
ams: [23:43:43]<cluck> arghhhhhh! i deserved that, i should've known better than to keep feeding you
benny
I still wished there was a reverse ignore, where you told the server to stop sending your messages to the other person
ams
cluck: sure, not the same as calling me a troll,rather don't you find that calling yourself a troll, i.e. admiting that you enjoy feeding people with crap and baiting it?
cluck
kids, don't feed the trolls at home please, this is a trained professional
ams
:-)
benny
I think some ircd implemented a +d where you could deaf people or yourself
the complexity in bash.org quotes would rise, but I'd try it!
cluck
damd: not the case here but i still lold a bit you /b/astard
rgr
I'm going to hell. After all the moaning about X etc and copy/paste from console emacs I actually quite like the mouse hilite way and auto set of primary select. without needing to copy.
timcharper
how do you filter the buffer through a UNIX command?
rgr
well for the thinkpad its ok as the mouse is the nipple in the kbd. no extra hand reqd for external mouse.
timcharper
I've tried using meta-!
neosoothsayer
hey guys, I installed the dev version of Emacs-w3m on my Mac laptop, and the install went well
I added the (require 'w3m-load) in my .emacs
now M-x w3m complains this version is not supported with 23.1
Where does require look for the w3m executable?
what could I be doing wrong with my emacs-w3m install?
timcharper
neosoothsayer: probably somewhere in your load-path, would be my guess.
w3m is a Emacs Lisp script, is it not? (I didn't know that it was an executable)
neosoothsayer
I did have a previous install of w3m that worked on 22.3, and I never removed it. That is getting loaded?
timcharper: yeah, sorry, I get my terms mixed up - its a script
timcharper
cript
ERC> it may be, check the contents of your load-path. It will surely be searching all of those directories to find it.
neosoothsayer
Ah, I see the problem - the new install is going to a different directory where the older version of w3m is
timcharper: thanks!
rgr
emacs 23 needs cvs w3m I think.
timcharper
Emacs is a piece of crap. It can't even filter a buffer through a UNIX command?
damd
,salespitch
fsbot
We aren't gonna lie. Emacs sucks. Some of us tolerate it, but we can't tell you if YOU'LL be able to. Try it and make up your own mind.
rgr
timcharper: it can'l brush your teeth for you either. godddamn it!
timcharper
wait, nobody's going to try to prove me wrong?
that usually works.
neosoothsayer
timcharper: people are tired of flames here???
fsbot
Ask yourself, do you really want to know?
timcharper
rgr: lol.
consolers
timcharper M-|
timcharper
consolers: thank you!
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