logs archiveIRC Archive / Freenode / #emacs / 2010 / January / 19 / 1
jlf
so far i have: "emacs or vim?"
shabble
rgr: you might ask it of someone doing embedded programming (and should have a firm grasp of bit twiddling), but even still, it's a bad question, since people are likely to either know the trick or not.
ericP
i like how interview questions are so retro. "how can you create an xor from a nand and a rand?"
need one for the kids. "how can a blog entry in a cafe in SF change a judge's decision in myanmar?"
shabble
a rand?
damd
ah, the old rand
rgr
shabble: exactly and even in embeded programming leave it to the compiler or use some coman favored macro.
damd
xrand is the best though
rgr
rand?
damd
you don't know what a rand is?
         

jlf
isn't/wasn't that the south african unit of currency?
shabble
rgr: about the only use would be the followup question of "and when would you use such a construct?"
rgr
nope. And never needed to. Which backs up my point about smart alec questions.
shabble
if they fail to answer "never!", give em the boot :p
damd
i was thinking ayn rand
rgr
shabble: true.
shabble
I think I might add "The compiler is (probably) smarter than you" to our coding standards.
rgr
now, I have a degree in electronic systems and conputer sys eng so dont feel at all embarassed to say I havent ever heard of a "rand".
jlf
verification positions are harder to interview for than design positions imo
damd
,rand
fsbot
[Too many DB matches] [google] http://www.emacswiki.org/scripts/uwp-generator
http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/prand.el
ericP
i heard that a rand gate is constructed from an a2d and a rusty nail
shabble
jlf: start deliberately misspelling things and add a few errors to some sample document, and see if they notice.
jlf
you can't just put up a block of code like while (a=b) {...} and make him spot the bugs
rgr
We used to chuck the old i=i++ at smarty pants. But it was terrifying how many people claimng C expertise were unable to write a string copy function. I kid you not.
cluck
shabble: s/probably/99.9%/
shabble: also "make that 0.1% count or get the boot"
shabble
ericP: I always preferred http://www.lavarnd.org/what/process.html
jlf
the last several candidates i've interviewed couldn't explain the function of * and & in c :|
unary & that is
ericP
i wonder what is the correlation is between people who can answer such a question and people who reliably get sh*t done
rgr
xcompmgr has made my old thinkpad look and act like a flashy oSX based mac laptop ;)
         

damd
jlf: ask them if they know monads
jlf
lol you said "nads"</butthead>
legumbre
(Action) willing to relocate
rgr
jlf: programming Qs in interviews often panic people. I used to look for "deeper understanding". Any programmer can pick up language specifics quick enough if surounded by good examples and team.
shabble
jlf: I went through 9-10 people with MScs and top notch CVs on embedded programming who couldn't implement (any vaguely plausible version of) strcpy.
jlf
(Action) nods
rgr
shabble: that was our standard Q for new programmers claiming C. Maybe one in twnety go it right.
shabble
we even scared a few off by offering them the manpage to get the interface right :(
jlf
rgr: do you consider "what does &foo mean?" a programming question, or do you mean something like reverse a linked list on the whiteboard?
rgr
Those that got it then got strrev and usually got that too or close enough. I thought strcpy was standard K&R. There is no code sweeter than while(*d++=*s++);
jlf
(Action) got asked to permute a string at a msft interview
rgr
jlf: the second is the programming Q but the first an be too if you look for a description of pointers etc and why you use them.
jlf
legumbre: got a green card? :)
ericP
shabble, tx for the pointer to lavarand. it's both comprehensive and cool
shabble
"Think of the memory as a series of pigeonholes. And the pointers are angry bengal tigers stuffed into some of the boxes"
rgr
And again, it is amazng how people can be so ignorant of pointers. I blame Java. I hate Java. As in depise it.
legumbre
jlf: nope :(
(Action) stays in the third world, it's _your_ loss anyway! :P
shabble
ericP: in that vein, http://gamesbyemail.com/News/DiceOMatic is even more awesome.
jlf
believe me, dodging an asic verification gig is your gain
olognation
I'm teaching math, and it would be really handy if it were possible to edit matrices in emacs in some natural way.
cluck
i blame communication skills (or lack thereof)
legumbre
hehe
olognation
Does anyone have any idea or know some mode that would allow me to do this?
jlf
olognation: like org-mode's table editor?
shabble
jlf: some sort of HDL testing with lots of buzzwords and horribly broken toolchains?
olognation
jlf, Hm.. I've used org-mode before, but I don't know about table editor..
rgr
I bet calc has something too. Calc is lik Deep Thought when you dig deep.
olognation
I'm using modular arithmetic, so I should be able to increment and decrement each cell one at a time.
cluck
some people can do their thing pretty well but if you ask them how or what they did they'll look like morons and be unable to answer decently
jlf
shabble: yep
olognation
wow. Calc is cool.
rgr
How would you get "into" embedded programming. I need a new challenge and have prety strong C. Some good emulators/tutorials you can recommend jlf?
shabble
jlf: the few lectures I've had on teh subject were enough to convince me that an alternate career was advisable.
jlf
rgr
olognation: calc is amazing.
cluck
olognation: if you're doing maths you might prefer http://www.texmacs.org/ (honestly and sadly i don't think emacs is on par)
shabble
jlf
rgr: arduino is pretty popular now and iirc it's c based
shabble
it depends what level of 'embedded' you're thinking of
ericP
shabble, ……
jlf
if you want to learn an hdl like verilog or vhdl you can get fpga dev kits for <US$100 or so, e.g. at sparkfun.com
shabble
iirc arduino is some brutal java-like monstrosity, but the hardware (and bootloader) can be used with straight avr-gcc code.
qDot_
Yeah, the arduino is just a AVR breakout board, really.
With an FTDI on board.
rgr
I know its not popular here, but I recently knocked up a factory based web "kernel" in php and was pretty impressed at the ease of code creation. Follow some standard best practices for naming, splitting files and of course escaping any mysql data to avoid injections and it was running with mysql in no time at all.
ericP
shabble, the DiceOMatic is indeed fabulous. got any more rand sources like that?
qDot_
The software just gives you a firmware layer so you can reload your code easily on top of it.
PFfft
If you want a MAN'S random number: http://random.irb.hr
shabble
qDot_
(Action) misses Yuzoz, which was a random number generator based on solar flares. Their biggest revenue points were the gambling industry and new age hippies. XD
shabble
I keep meaning to get one to play around with
rgr
shabble: that actually needs HW?
jlf
rgr: i don't know of any hdl tutorials but one idea is to use online course notes like http://inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~cs150/fa06/Calendar.php
rgr
hdl?
jlf
hardware description language
,hdl is hardware description language such as verilog or vhdl
fsbot
created.
rgr
thanks for links
jlf
yw
shabble
verilog/vhdl; basically "this gate is wired to that gate, and the knee-bone's connected to the..."
or you can trust your luck/judgement to a synthesis tool.
jlf
which is what everyone does in practice
shabble
there's a free verilog compiler/testbench called Icarus, I think?
which is fun for the first 5 minutes
ericP
(Action) drank too many white russians and started checking out competing sources of conceptual entropy ( <a rel="nofollow" href="http://gamesbyemail.com/News/DiceOMatic">http://gamesbyemail.com/News/DiceOMatic</a> , <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.lavarnd.org/what/process.html">http://www.lavarnd.org/what/process.html</a> , <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.entropykey.co.uk/">http://www.entropykey.co.uk/</a> )
jlf
(Action) is waiting for a lisp-based hdl
ericP
mr. king, i fear i have let you down. shabble, i'm impressed by your repetoir
shabble
ericP: to do it properly, you need some cyanide, radioisotopes, and a large supply of cats.
rgr
so much for berkely .... http://inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~cs150/fa06/Grades/Grades.php
jlf
hmm, looks like verilisp has matured some since i last looked
,verilisp is http://home.comcast.net/~faulkner612/programming/verilisp/
fsbot
created.
rgr
Heisenburg is responsble for more smug physics students than any other man.
ericP
shabble, around 3.6m cats to compete with the DiceOMatic
rgr
But schroedinger comes a close second.
ericP
that's almost certainly going to get some attention from PETA
rgr
Douglas Adams made him more famous than ever before of course.
ericP
i was blaming shoddy physics experiments on uncertainty *way* before Douglas Adams
rgr
shoddy==uncertainty. But there is nothing shoddy in Schroedinger's obversation.
shabble
you could probably get away with anaesthetic instead, and just s/dead/napping/
of course, there's always the Pratchett observation of the mystical 3rd state "Bloody furious"
rgr
obversaton? Wow. That SHOULD be a word.
ericP
results in a probability field into which you do not what to insert a hand
rgr
Pratchett is awful. Reptitive copy cat.
Hmmm. Cats again.
twillis
have a question regarding find-dired and find-grep-dired for the wizards. I want to know if there's a way to find files, pipe through a grep and get a dired buffer.....
rgr
Maybe Adams had it wrong. It should be so long and thanks for the all the tinned fish.
twillis
so that I can start at a base directory and find all the *.css that contain #some-id put into a dired buffer. is it possible out of the box?
ericP
twillis, the grep buffer gives you some of the functionality of a dired buffer (like you can click on stuff)
plus you can *see* what it matched on
twillis
right, i discovered rgrep today. it seems like find-grep-dired needs to take params for find in order to get what I want.
ericP
M-x grep and then change the command to $(find . -name \*.css -print0 | xargs -0 grep -nH -e \#some_id)
('cause i never discovered rgrep)
twillis
i'm thinking something like find all files with hibernate annotations defined and then move them to another package/project
that's why I would want the dired buffer I think
oh well, sounds like it's not exactly straightforward, stackoverflow.com is consistent with that so far
shabble
oh auto-complete, why must you taunt me with your occasional working and mutilate my buffers the rest of the time?! :(
twillis
lol, it seemd find-dired on my linux machine will prepopulate the find args with exactly what I needed, but on my company issued FreeCell workstation powered by XP Pro it gave me nothing useful.
find-dired + linux is what I needed.
rgr
shabble: I use company-mode. Pretty happy with it.
quotemstr
*Everything* is easier with cooperative threading.
rgr
but now you mention it, it wasnt working in some crappy css buffer a little while ago.
quotemstr
Does it make sense to allow negative octal literals?
jlf
why not?
bpalmer
Yes. Otherwise the accountants will just change bases.
legumbre
(Action) 's accountant uses ones' complement
rgr
My accountant uses hash. And pays for it with my money I assume.
e1f
(Action) proposes a new experiment: schroedinger's emacs
a copy of emacs source, a cvs repository and a fatal bug
rgr
I think it should be Mrs Slocombe's pu**y.
legumbre
rudybot_: quote
rudybot_
legumbre: I'll bang you.
legumbre
rudybot_: quote
rudybot_
legumbre: Let's secretly bomb cambodia while we're at it.
kfogel
(Action) is away: afk for some hours; see you antipodal people later probably
legumbre
(Action) uses <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.antipodemap.com/">http://www.antipodemap.com/</a> to find out where his antipodal people is
twb
Doesn't work in midori
bremner
or lynx
seems to work in arora
twb
I didn't expect it to work in a tty browser
Oh, it's a google maps thing
bremner
antipodal to me is water
twb
The antipode of melbourne is dead centre of the the north atlantic ocean.
jlf
let's go to a tty bar
cluck
portugal ~= new zealand
bremner
jlf: well, that certainly puts a new light on tty browser
twb
,tty bar
fsbot
twb: I heard TTY is short for Teletype
legumbre
antipodal to me is Seoul!
any #emacs people there?
cluck
twb: tsk, you fail sir, tty as in titty
;)
twb
cluck: that's retarded
cluck
what did you expect from a jlf joke
(Action) ducks
johnw
but funny
gotta side with jlf on this one, twb
jlf
\o/
johnw
now we know that a bra is a dedicated tty device
jlf
(Action) groans
cluck
johnw: we already knew that, it's obviously a character device, i give some preference to double DD
johnw
dd if=/dev/tty...
derrida
anyone used swank/clojure with slime? i'm tryin got get things going using elpa and it's not going too smooth :)
johnw
i've use it, but not recently
derrida
johnw: i'm stuck with the repl working but continuously polling
goplexian
tty, oh man, im so glad I was here to see that
that jokes older than job
offby1
let's try removing -R again...
(Action) cringes
derrida
(Action) hides
consolers
any hot chyx wanna chat /m me
offby1
pfft
qDot_
http://www.goats oh wait I was already registered
offby1
see?!
derrida
lol
technomancy
derrida: did you figure slime out?
consolers
(Action) resurrected "vanilla lisp shell" from 2004
offby1
,Is Houston _really_ "too close to New Orleans"?
fsbot
I heard is is is
offby1
That depends on what the meaning of is is is.
technomancy
who wants to test out support for multiple archive sources for package.el?
I think it's working now
http://github.com/technomancy/package.el
e1f
"we did take a closer look at Apple's invitation copy. "Apple's latest creation," without the spaces, becomes "Appleslatestcreation," which of course does contain the phrase "Apple Slate.""
hmmmm
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