logs archiveIRC Archive / Freenode / #emacs / 2009 / November / 23 / 8
MisterN
JordiGH: why? that's the definition upheld by the courts.
srbaker
i just had a 6mo or so break, then got new one
JordiGH
MisterN: No, that's the definition of copyright infringement.
bremner
(Action) yawns in the general direction of the "copyright infringment is theft" rehash
JordiGH
MisterN: Theft is about depriving and others of property.
MisterN
JordiGH: copyright infringement may (depending on your jurisdiction) be classified as theft.
JordiGH
MisterN: Really? Which one says it's theft?
srbaker
i thought the dmca redefined infringement as theft in the US?
(in canada it's not)
DuClare
(Action) builds a chair exactly like the one MisterN sits on
Ha! I stole your chair!
         

MisterN
no, you stole the design of my chair :)
in fact i wonder how you managed to do that given i don't sit on a chair
JordiGH
srbaker: Let me see.. I can't grep "theft", "theif" or "steal" in here: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c105:6:./temp/~c105xl4GW4::
DuClare
MisterN, Oh, so you can't build chairs like that anymore :(
boscop_
how would I load the emacs starter-kit together with my own custom .emacs config?
JordiGH
thief, I can spell.
DuClare
Since you don't have the design..
jlf
let's debate tabs vs. spaces next
MisterN
jlf: haha.
srbaker
JordiGH: possible. i'm not disagreeing, just stating what i thought ot be true
DuClare
(Action) hugs jlf
srbaker
i don't actually give a sh*t about the dmca, because i live in a sane country
DuClare
inasane
MisterN
why shouldn't there be compensation for coming up with precious ideas?
JordiGH
MisterN: Anyways, I enjoy being a thief. I've also stolen Wolfram|Alpha's output a few times.
cn28h
is there any command to delete backward a bunch of whitespace? (but not what comes before it) I'm looking at kill-backward-* but not seeing anything
DuClare
just-one-space
Well, it deletes forward too..
jlf
cn28h: ,,df delete-horizontal-space
fsbot
delete-horizontal-space is an interactive compiled Lisp function in
`simple.el'.
It is bound to M-\.
(delete-horizontal-space &optional BACKWARD-ONLY)
Delete all spaces and tabs around point.
If BACKWARD-ONLY is non-nil, only delete them before point.
jlf
with prefix
DuClare
Cool.
         

MisterN
why does anybody ever make default bindings at \ ?
not everybody uses a layout where \ is a single stroke
cn28h
oh man, I love emacs :) thanks jlf
ggole
Also see ,,dv backward-delete-char-untabify-method
fsbot
The method for untabifying when deleting backward.
Can be `untabify' -- turn a tab to many spaces, then delete one space;
`hungry' -- delete all whitespace, both tabs and spaces;
`all' -- delete all whitespace, including tabs, spaces and newlines; ..[Type ,more]
cn28h
hm
DuClare
MisterN, That's why you can customize them
JordiGH
MisterN: You should. Emacs and many programming languages are really built for a US layout. Emacs provides its own mechanism for inputting non-ASCII characters.
MisterN
there is NO WAY that i'm switching away from my beloved german layout.
DuClare
Then change the bindings
MisterN
DuClare: yeah i guess i will do that when i need the functions :)
JordiGH
MisterN: I was raised on two layouts.
MisterN
JordiGH: and that screwed you up, i notice!
JordiGH
MisterN: Yeah, it made me a thief! :D
MisterN
e-xactly
DuClare
I learnt Dvorak and bought a keyboard with US layout
quotemstr
My layout is Model M. :-)
DuClare
Oh, when I was learning Dvorak, I stole an image which shows the layout, so it was easier to get started
Nobody else can learn it that way now :(
My friends stole it too.
quotemstr
Typing isn't a bottleneck for me, so I don't see the advantage in switching to Dvorak.
fledermaus
dvorak isn't actually any faster, is it?
I'm not aware of any studies that show it to be superior.
JordiGH
Thievery: y(x) = c_1 e^x;
OberWrk
,javascript.el
fsbot
JordiGH
Look, mom, I'm violating Wolfram's copyright! :D
jlf
(Action) ponders attaching to screen within emacs within screen
rgr
typing isnt a bottle neck for most programmers in my experience. You only enter at a certain thinking rate. Its rare to "data entry" like in the old days of copying hex codes in to play scramble or somesuch on ones ZX Spectrum :)
DuClare
Look, mom, I'm violating Wolfram's copyright! :D
JordiGH
Actually, I'm stealing his intellectual property.
Poor Wolfram will soon be left without intellect at this rate. :-(
MisterN
very funny.
ggole
Stephen Wolfram has plenty to go around, at least according to Stephen Wolfram
Although the guy doesn't strike me as stupid so much as arrogant and badly misdirected
JordiGH
He already owns a lot of mathematics...
rgr
yeah. What a loser eh? Creating and supporting Mathematica.
shabble
didn't he try to reinvent physics at one point?
JordiGH
shabble: Not just physics, all of science!
rgr
You cab smell the petty jealousies.
JordiGH
rgr: That's what he says. In reality, he sued the pants off all the other creators.
shabble
JordiGH: there's more to science than physics? :p
iirqc, the rest is just stamp collecting :)
rgr
What other creators and for what? Be specific. If they stole his ideas then fu*k them.
ggole
rgr: the wolfram hate is probably born more of ANKOS than Mathematica
fledermaus
JordiGH: what, he's an underpants gnome? 1) collect pants ... 3) profit?
rgr
Sounds interesting read :-)
JordiGH
rgr: Wolfram is *wonderful* at self promotion. He sues whoever disagrees with self-promotion. He's sued or threatened to sue employees of his who attempted to publish theorems without his approval, because he owns his employees' theorems.
rgr
And he does. What is your point?
OberWrk
,php
fsbot
[->] php-mode is [0] <http://emacswiki.org/wiki/PhpMode>
[1] difficult to implement in Emacs (see mmm-mode),
[2] PHP is a good example of how not to design a language,
[3] see also nxhtml
JordiGH
rgr: Mathematica started as an academic project at Caltech. Wolfram claimed he had written all of it, when he had a bunch of collaborators. When they disagreed with him, the lawsuits started flying until he got control of all of Mathematica and put his name on it. Then he started hiring people and put his name on their work too.
rgr
So what? This is true of all businesses. He pays them. Their work is owned by the company. Sad but true. So is life.
Want to be a free spirit then dont get paid by someone who finances your "not so free" thinking and R&D.
JordiGH
Sorry, I forget that whatever is profitable and legal is moral.
danderson
legal, it certainly is, provided you sign the employment contract
moral is a way larger issue :)
JordiGH
I'll stop stealing walfalfa's output. I don't want all the poor Wolframs of the world to starve. :-(
MisterN
JordiGH: the stuff written by his colleages at caltech was NOT legally his, provided your description is accurate.
JordiGH
MisterN: Uh, it is legally his, because the courts ruled in his favour.
Cole was a bit contributor to the initial development of Mathematica. I'm not sure what happened to him.
rgr
JordiGH: Moral? What are you talking about? If they develop those ideas on his payrole then they are working for him and his business. There is no morality involved. Trying to get paid by him and then giving his work (companies work) away is certainly not moral.
MisterN
JordiGH: not if the courts made a mistake.
JordiGH
rgr: "There is no morality involved" <--- we have nothing further to discuss.
MisterN
JordiGH: and if your description is correct, the courts MADE a mistake.
quotemstr
Oh, yay, a flamewar.
rgr
Lets pretend some big shot movie maker hires a script writer and they work together for 6 months on a script. It doesnt work out. If that writer then takes that work elsewhere then he is in breech of contract. The company which funded the development own it. It seems quite fair to me.
quotemstr
rgr: Mathematics ought not to be covered by copyright at all. Therefore theorems cannot be works for hire, and Wolfram's behavior is unfounded.
rgr
JordiGH: Sure no worries. If you're some sort of loony that thinks these ideas develop themselves for free then best of luck!
MisterN
rgr: is the scriptwriter allowed to write other scripts in his spare time that don't belong to the company?
rgr
Bullsh*t.
shabble
I have more of an issue with the "Anything you produce during your contract belongs to us, regardless of whether it was done during work hours or you were compensated for it" employment IP agreements
JordiGH
It's notoriously difficult to grep the internet for Mathematica's actual origin. Wolfram has done a good job rewriting history.
rgr
MisterN: No. of course not. because he is under contract for that period of time UNLESS he has a written waiver.
danderson
shabble: best live somewhere where those are unenforceable, ISTR California has that
fledermaus
shabble: I agree to those if the employer agrees to put me on 24 hour retainer
so far, no takers.
MisterN
rgr: that strikes me as an unfair aspect.
rgr
I just despair at people who are so quick to give other peoples work away so easily.
MisterN: Yes. Possibly. But how else to regulate it?
danderson
(they can be enforced if you use the company's equipment to do stuff, which again strikes me as fair)
shabble
fledermaus: interesting idea. I've scratched it out of the contract and gone ahead for a previous job
I'm not sure anyone actually noticed
MisterN
rgr: only own stuff relevant to work projects?
JordiGH
Hahaha: http://www.wolfram.com/products/mathematica/history.html
quotemstr
rgr: And I despair at the mentality shared by some that we must kowtow to large corporations.
rgr: There is more to life than work.
rgr
We could find all sorts of corner cases. The bottom line is this : the company is paying these people for their time and their brains and their ideas. End of story. The employees shopuld not be free to take that money and then hand over their work to others.
quotemstr: then go live in a field.
JordiGH
"It is often said that Mathematica marked the beginning of modern technical computing."
rgr
FWIW, I like and support OSS. That is not the issue.
quotemstr
rgr: The company is renting the employee's brain for eight hours a day.
fledermaus
JordiGH: well, wolfram does do a lot of talking :)
shabble
weasel words!
quotemstr
rgr: Outside of that is none of the company's business.
MisterN
rgr: sure, i agree with that, but i think the corner cases should be regulated fairly :)
rgr
quotemstr: dont be an idiot with every statement :-)
laurus
quotemstr, I agree...
JordiGH
"But the visionary concept of Mathematica was to create once and for all a single system that could handle all the various aspects of technical computing"
rgr
quotemstr: did you ever work in the real workd?
JordiGH
yeah, screw you Macsyma, Derive, Mupad, Maple...
GSaldana
is there a way to set gnus to send an email on a given date/time?
quotemstr
rgr: What part of my view makes me naive?
danderson
JordiGH: it's a wonder anyone is even programming any more. It appears that Mathematica solves all problems for ever.
rgr
Any ideas in that period are linked to your working day. Tough I know but a fact. And IF that person is working on their own work oustside of the "company hours" then they are almost certainly not fit to work properly in the real working hours.
JordiGH
danderson: Wolfram|Alpha is the singularity.
MisterN
danderson: ex-actly!
rgr
quotemstr: pretty much everything you say to be honest.
quotemstr
rgr: The relationship a company has with its employee's life should be strictly limited .
rgr
quotemstr: yeah in fariy land. This is the real world we inhabit.
jlf
(Action) <= sooooo glad not to work for rgr
quotemstr
rgr: You haven't supported your arguments with any rationality.
danderson
JordiGH: if by singularity you mean insignificant micro-blackhole, then yeah, I agree :P
laurus
rgr, quotemastr is right... I can program outside company hours and that's not owned by the company... unless I'm mistaken?
ggole
Depends on your contract
quotemstr
rgr: What makes you think work-thoughts and personal-thoughts are intricately related like you propose?
rgr
Yes I have. Tell me : should the health insurance the company pays only be valid for those 8 hours too?
quotemstr
ggole: Things like that aren't legal in California, IIRC.
rgr
quotemstr: because anyone with half a brain knows they are.
shabble
it can get a bit hairy with legalities if you're working on similar topics at home & work
since your employer can argue that you're using skills which they've provided you with/funded you to acquire.
rgr
shabble: a bit???? Why do you think most companies will not allow it? Its not be nasty you know.
fledermaus
shabble: I concede a company might not want me to work on closely related areas.
rgr
Argue? You are. There are not arguments about it.
quotemstr
rgr: No, health insurance should have nothing to do with work. But since it does presently, a healthy employee is necessary for work. It's not as if one can turn off an illness during business hours.
rgr
You need a special waiver.
quotemstr
rgr: Why are you arguing against your own interests?
rgr: Are you a Fortune 500 company?
rgr
quotemstr: I'm not. I am arguing against your cloud cuckoo land.
quotemstr
rgr: You're arguing yourself into wage slavery.
laurus
rgr, I don't understand what your point is
tromey
I wonder how this was related to emacs
rgr
No I am not. I haev worked full time, freelance and self employed.
laurus
It obviously just depends on the specific contract right?
quotemstr
rgr: Company have *no goddamn right* to interfere in my life. I suppose you'd be okay with living in a company town and being paid in scrip too.
danderson
the simplest really is to bash out an agreement with your employer - or become your own employer
fledermaus
so I usually say "here are the FOSS things I have already worked on, they are no-go areas as far as the contract goes - in addition, things not related directly to my work, that I do on my own time, are mine."
rgr
quotemstr: then dont work for any. You're a rabid loon :-;
laurus
Each of you guys is arguing one case, it just depends on the contract.
danderson
regardless of what should or might be, reality sucks, and requires dealing with.
jlf
laurus: and the local law
laurus
jlf, yeah that's true
quotemstr
rgr: You're a rabid loon. As a matter of fact, I've worked for a variety of employers, and at all of them, have come to an understanding that my work (at least as it doesn't pertain to areas of company interest) is my own.
shabble
laurus: yes, but we're arguing about what a contract *should* contain, in cloud cuckoo land.
rgr
and like all loons you take your aguements to the extreme to try and defend your ridiculous arguments about being opporessed.
quotemstr
laurus: We're arguing about what the ideal should be. Yes, in each case, it's governed by contract.
rgr
quotemstr: thank you dfor just shooting yourself down in flames.
quotemstr
rgr: Why are you so eager to let companies dip their fingers in your personal time?
shabble
with rgr keeping us helpfully grounded in GRARARRRR CAPITALISM land :p
rgr
quotemstr: what are you raving on about?
quotemstr
rgr: In principe, I should be able to take *two* 40-hour-per-week jobs without conflict.
rgr
Who said I was eager?
jlf
there's someone raving here but it isn't quotemstr
rgr
LOL.
JordiGH
LOL
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